POPE CONDEMNS STEM CELL RESEARCH [Archive] - Whistle Stopper Political Forums

DRMIZER

11-11-2003, 10:53 AM

VATICAN CITY (AP) — Pope John Paul II on Monday denounced as "morally contradictory" any medical treatment based on stem cells taken from embryo tissue.

In a speech to scientists Monday, the pope said research into stem cell technology "has understandably grown in importance in recent years because of the hope it offers for the cure of ills affecting many people."

John Paul suffers from Parkinson's Disease, one of the ailments that might benefit from stem cell research. However, he reiterated the Vatican position that "stem cells for purposes of experimentation or treatment cannot come from human embryo tissue."

Vatican teaching holds that life begins at conception.

"Any treatment which claims to save human lives, yet is based on human life in its embryonic state, is logically and morally contradictory, as is any production of human embryos for the direct or indirect purpose of experimentation or eventual destruction," the pope told participants in a meeting organized by the Pontifical Academy of the Sciences, an advisory body.

Research, instead, should be conducted on adult human tissue or "tissue superfluous to normal fetal development," the pontiff added.

Because stem cells can develop into any body tissue, scientists say they hope for one day being able to treat a variety of diseases from Parkinson's to diabetes to spinal cord injuries.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2003-11-10-pope-stem-cell_x.htm

cpwill

11-12-2003, 02:37 PM

Yes, medical testing on Humans without their consent (even if it's to better other humans) is immoral.

if you disagree, you are free to reference Joseph Mengle and Unit 731.

wow, i agree with the Pope on something, who knew?:D :cool:

Simon666

11-12-2003, 02:42 PM

Originally posted by cpwill
Yes, medical testing on Humans without their consent (even if it's to better other humans) is immoral.
My little Taliban friend, I think a heap of cells is different from a human. :rolleyes:

Simon666

11-12-2003, 02:44 PM

By the way, people like the pope could be greatly benefit with applications of the stem cell research for curing Parkinson's disease. I find it quite ironic he forbids it and because I like ironic punishment I therefor hope he dies very slowly of this long and painstaking disease.

cpwill

11-12-2003, 04:31 PM

Originally posted by Simon666
My little Taliban friend, I think a heap of cells is different from a human. :rolleyes:

well my big belgian friend; consider this; if you remove spirituality and your soul, then all You are is a heap of cells.;)

<<By the way, people like the pope could be greatly benefit with applications of the stem cell research for curing Parkinson's disease. I find it quite ironic he forbids it and because I like ironic punishment I therefor hope he dies very slowly of this long and painstaking disease.>>

heaven forbid a man should be willing to stand up and suffer for his beliefs. what a jerk not to take the easy way out.:rolleyes: Simon, you are smarter than that last bit.

gopman

11-12-2003, 04:53 PM

"heap of cells"

Aren't we all heaps of cells? Should one heap of cells get priority because it has existed longer?

I'd say it's admirable of the Pope to put the good of others in front of himself and support what he believes is the moral position on this issue. If you really want the Pope, who has dedicated his life to spreading peace and goodwill, to die a slow and painful death, then there is something seriously wrong with you. I also think you should stop comparing every conservative to the Taliban. If you're just going to do things like that rather than participate in an actual debate, you should find somewhere else to go.

up2date

11-12-2003, 05:03 PM

Originally posted by gopman
I also think you should stop comparing every conservative to the Taliban. If you're just going to do things like that rather than participate in an actual debate, you should find somewhere else to go. Originally posted by cpwill
heaven forbid a man should be willing to stand up and suffer for his beliefs. what a jerk not to take the easy way out. Simon, you are smarter than that last bit. Good points. Those little extra jabs do nothing to encourage others to take what may otherwise be good points seriously.

Simon666

11-12-2003, 06:42 PM

A heap of cells used in stem cell research is typically less than a couple of hundreds. A full grown human individual consists out of more than 10 trillion cells. I really think cpwill and gopman are stretching it to their limits when they equate the too as worth exactly as much. This shows doctrinal behaviour as clearly they are not. Stem cells have the capability to grow into any type of cells, which implies they are neither. So they do not think, feel pain, have a conscience or anything else I would call human. And cpwill, a soul does not exist by the way, only for religious people it does.

As far as the Pope is concerned, this man is co-responsible for possibly millions of Aids deaths with his doctrinal viewpoints on marriage and sexuality and the lies the church spreads about condoms and birth control. I really believe from the bottom of my heart he is a mass murderer larger than Pol Pot or Saddam so I wish him all the worst.

cpwill

11-12-2003, 07:23 PM

<<So they do not think, feel pain, have a conscience or anything else I would call human.>>

by your logic my great grandfather was not human for the last year of his life.

<<I really believe from the bottom of my heart he is a mass murderer larger than Pol Pot or Saddam so I wish him all the worst.>>

well, after all, isn't he your enemy?;)

Up2Date: simon and i are pretty much continuing a long line of debates that started on another forum; i'm pretty sure simon knew i meant no insult; i truly believe he is smarter than the way that point came off.

gopman

11-12-2003, 07:35 PM

That's a person, it's just not fully developed yet. By your logic, you can morally kill pre-pubescent children.

Blueangel

11-12-2003, 07:44 PM

Originally posted by cpwill
well my big belgian friend; consider this; if you remove spirituality and your soul, then all You are is a heap of cells.;) Some would consider me to have no spirituality being agnostic, and I have issues with the concept of soul.
In my defence, I have darn good taste in music.

At least I now know what to put on my next resume...
Please employ me...I'm just a heap of cells :D

Simon666

11-12-2003, 07:46 PM

Originally posted by cpwill
by your logic my great grandfather was not human for the last year of his life.
Well, euthanasia is another debate. If people do not and never will have those functions anymore, the term used to described that kind of people is "plants". The terminology people use spontaneously says a lot don't you think?
Originally posted by cpwill
well, after all, isn't he your enemy?;)
I consider him the enemy of all those who are catholic, were catholic or have had catholic education, the last two include me.
Originally posted by cpwill
Up2Date: simon and i are pretty much continuing a long line of debates that started on another forum; i'm pretty sure simon knew i meant no insult; i truly believe he is smarter than the way that point came off.
You know I was just provoking you a little, though I really believe your position comes down to fundamentalism. If I showed you stem cells under the microscope and some other plant tissue, you would not be able to tell which is which. And both have around equal capabilities as compared to what I want to call human life.

gopman

11-12-2003, 07:48 PM

The Pope isn't responsible for any deaths. The Roman Catholic faith preaches abstinence from extramarital sex. If they followed the Pope, there would be almost no AIDS problem whatsoever. People have to stop passing off their responsibility.

Simon666

11-12-2003, 07:50 PM

Originally posted by gopman
That's a person, it's just not fully developed yet. By your logic, you can morally kill pre-pubescent children.
With pre pubescent children, do you mean children before puberty? :confused: To my knowledge, those can think, feel pain, and have a conscience.

gopman

11-12-2003, 07:50 PM

"If I showed you stem cells under the microscope and some other plant tissue, you would not be able to tell which is which."

Plant cells have firm cell walls and animal cells have more pliable membranes.

gopman

11-12-2003, 07:51 PM

If I showed you the DNA of a fetus and the DNA of a grown man, I bet you could not tell me the difference.

Blueangel

11-12-2003, 07:55 PM

Originally posted by Simon666
As far as the Pope is concerned, this man is co-responsible for possibly millions of Aids deaths with his doctrinal viewpoints on marriage and sexuality and the lies the church spreads about condoms and birth control. I really believe from the bottom of my heart he is a mass murderer larger than Pol Pot or Saddam so I wish him all the worst. Woah! Woah! Woah!
Come on Simon...I believe you have a valid point to make on this issue. I also believe that this attack against JPII isn't relevent to the issue at hand and belongs in a thread of it's own.
You won't win going that route.

I don't know enough about stem cell research to have formed an educated viewpoint, but I do know that many scientists concur with the Pope's opinion, if for different reasons. Thus, it is diversionary to dismiss that opinion based on other issues.
I believe you're a better debator than that.

Simon666

11-12-2003, 07:56 PM

Originally posted by gopman
The Pope isn't responsible for any deaths. The Roman Catholic faith preaches abstinence from extramarital sex. If they followed the Pope, there would be almost no AIDS problem whatsoever. People have to stop passing off their responsibility.
In a fairy tale world yes. We don't live in one last time I checked. :rolleyes: Can I ask you a private question : did you have sex before you were married?

As we do not live in a fairy tale world, it is important that if people do commit extramarital sex they use condoms, and the catholic church spreads blatant lies (even if lying isn't allowed, the hypocritical mass murders) such as that condoms contain microscopic pores through which the Aids virus can get through anyway. Or that it is simply wrong. He is also against birth control or condoms within marriage. So if for example a man in Africa has sex with a prostitute who has Aids, gets infected, his wife, who has little or no power, will get infected too even if she is totally innocent when the man believes condoms don't work. This is a quite common situation.

gopman

11-12-2003, 08:02 PM

"such as that condoms contain microscopic pores through which the Aids virus can get through anyway."

Certain types of condoms do. Animal skin condoms in particualr. You can't blame the Pope for the irresponsible behavior by individuals. He tells them not to have sex. If they choose to sin, and more often than not people do, and they are responsible for that.

I was a smelly wrestler in high school, so no girls would come near me. As for my life after that, I will not disclose any details here.

Simon666

11-12-2003, 08:07 PM

Latex condoms don't. Are animal skin condoms still used? Isn't ****ing a sheeps colon a thing of the 1900s?

You can blame the Pope for spreading lies about condoms, so when extramarital sex does occur or when a faithful wife does not want to be infected people use life saving measures. He turns them on a path of death.

By the way, what religion are you? Catholic?

up2date

11-12-2003, 08:09 PM

The Pope preaches some ideals that aren't realistic in the real world. He doesn't mean bad, but the effects sometimes are. The Vatican announced a while ago that condoms don't prevent AIDS, abstinence does. That's just not realistic. I understand not wanting to endorse premarital sex, but the reality is it's going to happen, and when it does, it's best if people understand the benefits of condoms.

gopman

11-12-2003, 08:09 PM

"Are animal skin condoms still used"

Yes. Alot of people think they provide a more pleasurable experience. I wouldn't be surprised if they were much more common in third world countries. The pope hasn't spread any lies about anything.

Simon666

11-12-2003, 08:11 PM

The catholic church generalized this too all condoms including latex. See for yourself. (http://www.guardian.co.uk/aids/story/0,7369,1059068,00.html) I've seen the documentary, I've seen them say it.

Simon666

11-12-2003, 08:13 PM

Originally posted by up2date
The Pope preaches some ideals that aren't realistic in the real world. He doesn't mean bad, but the effects sometimes are. The Vatican announced a while ago that condoms don't prevent AIDS, abstinence does. That's just not realistic. I understand not wanting to endorse premarital sex, but the reality is it's going to happen, and when it does, it's best if people understand the benefits of condoms.
I agree to that. And the latter (understanding the benefits) is prevented by what the catholic church preaches.

gopman

11-12-2003, 08:20 PM

'Teaching people about safe sex, the Vatican says, is "a dangerous and immoral policy based on the deluded theory that the condom can provide adequate protection against AIDS." '

That's exactly what the pope (via his Vatican spokesman) said. First of all, the Church believes contraception is immoral. Why would they be expected to teach people how to use it? The Church teaches people to live like Jesus. Realistically that doesn't happen, so should it just give up? The Vatican wasn't incorrect in its claim. Certain types of condoms don't stop HIV, and Latex condoms have about a 15% failure rate. He didn't say "no protection," he said "adequate protection." That is a subjective matter, and you can't call him a liar, and especially not a murderer.

And yes, I am Catholic.

gopman

11-12-2003, 08:22 PM

Condoms have a 23% failure rate at preventing HIV transmission, according to Focus on the Family. Citing a 1995 American Journal of Epidemiology article, which reported a Brazilian study of 204 heterosexual couples, each comprising of an HIV-positive man and an uninfected woman. Among couples who used condoms 100% of the time, 23% of the women were infected with HIV. Family Issues Alert, Vol. 3, No. 39, 9/27/95.

up2date

11-12-2003, 08:23 PM

I can't vouch for all the statements in the following article, but some of them are pretty bad. None of them came directly from the pope, however.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/3176982.stm

gopman

11-12-2003, 09:29 PM

"It says cardinals, bishops, priests and nuns in four continents are saying HIV can pass through tiny holes in condoms. "

That is true in some cases.

"The Vatican is opposed to contraception and has advocated that people change their behaviour instead"

What's so wrong with that?

up2date

11-12-2003, 09:40 PM

Originally posted by gopman
What's so wrong with that? Nothing is wrong with some of those quotes. It's some of the others that trouble me a bit.The programme includes a Catholic nun advising her HIV-infected choir master not to use condoms with his wife because "the virus can pass through".The Archbishop of Nairobi Raphael Ndingi Nzeki told Panaroma that condoms were helping to spread the virus.

"Aids...has grown so fast because of the availability of condoms," he said. "Some priests have even been saying that condoms are laced with HIV/Aids," he said.Again, I can't vouch for the veracity of these statements, but some are troubling if true.

gopman

11-12-2003, 09:54 PM

If there are individual clergymen who are misinformed or dishonest, it shouldn't be used as an attack on the Catholic Church as a whole or its leader, the Pope. Some of them probably feel that the ends of their actions justify the means. That is not the moral or ethical way to go about it at all, and I am not defending that.

gopman

11-12-2003, 09:56 PM

"Nothing is wrong with some of those quotes"

What I was asking is what's wrong with asking people to practice abstinence rather than the use of contraceptives.

Blueangel

11-12-2003, 09:59 PM

Hang on a darn minute!!!

I just need to check if my invisibility shield has lifted...

So...you've all jumped from stem cell research to condoms?

Blueangel

11-12-2003, 10:03 PM

Originally posted by gopman
What I was asking is what's wrong with asking people to practice abstinence rather than the use of contraceptives. :D As a 38 year old single woman...MAN! Did that make me giggle!
Absti-what? ;)

Ok...I'm being flippant here, but let's get real.

up2date

11-12-2003, 10:06 PM

Originally posted by gopman
If there are individual clergymen who are misinformed or dishonest, it shouldn't be used as an attack on the Catholic Church as a whole or its leader, the Pope. Agreed.Originally posted by gopman
What I was asking is what's wrong with asking people to practice abstinence rather than the use of contraceptives.There's nothing wrong with that at all. It's just realistically we know not everybody is going to practice abstinence, so it's irresponsible to pretend contraceptives don't exist or to spread lies about their effectiveness. That said, you are absolutely correct in pointing out that those quotes were attributed to individual clergymen, and not the Pope. But one of those men was president of the Vatican's Pontifical Council for the Family, although his quotes were less questionable.

up2date

11-12-2003, 10:07 PM

Originally posted by Blueangel
So...you've all jumped from stem cell research to condoms? Um, oh yeah. How did we do that? :thinking:

gopman

11-12-2003, 10:13 PM

I don't think that smiley is scratching his chin- it looks like he's playing with a joystick.

I don't think it's the place of the Church to provide information on contraceptives. The Church is there for moral and spiritual guidance. The Church as a whole is doing exactly what it should be.

Simon666

11-13-2003, 06:32 AM

Originally posted by gopman
Why would they be expected to teach people how to use it?
I'm not asking for that, I say they ought to stop spreading desinformation and propaganda about the efficiency of condoms so not more people would die due to their fault.
Originally posted by gopman
The Church teaches people to live like Jesus. Realistically that doesn't happen, so should it just give up? The Vatican wasn't incorrect in its claim. Certain types of condoms don't stop HIV, and Latex condoms have about a 15% failure rate. He didn't say "no protection," he said "adequate protection." That is a subjective matter, and you can't call him a liar, and especially not a murderer.
Who says Jezus wasn't married or didn't have sex? The Bible says nothing about that nor about his apostles because women were not considered important enough to write about. I would find a guy who pulls up with 12 others guys on his own very, very suspicious otherwise. And "subjective matter" or not, the Church has an awful lot of influence and thus an awful responsibility in poor countries where they provide education. If these people are told that condoms - including latex ones - are ineffective while latex condoms, the standard type, do provide that protection, then they are guilty as hell and if hell exists, I hope that is where they will burn.
Originally posted by gopman
And yes, I am Catholic.
I should have known. I was a catholic too, virulent atheist now. It is my opinion that the best way of becoming an anti-catholic is to give smart people the excellent catholic education, and the best way of becoming a devote catholic is to give dumb people the excellent catholic education.

And no offense buddy, I've used that statement years before in my life so it is not like I'm bent on calling you dumb. I even wanted to become priest at age 12-14, then I started to see all the lies and contradictions they spread. The church is all about power, you declare certain things immoral and appoint yourself as authority to supervise on that, to lecture on that, to be God's representative on earth. The pope is the head of a religious dictatorship, that he dies isn't bad, that a new one will replace him is.

Everybody including gopman seems here bent on declaring mullahs keep people dumb and uneducated or spread lies and desinformation, but to use a phrase from the bible : they see the splinter in the other man's eye, but don't see the beam on their own. There is nothing in the Bible on stem cells or where life starts, this is all the interpretation of a sexist old man who has never known a woman in his life apart from his mother who died when he was a kid so he has a sick, idealized, unrealistic view on love, marriage and sexuality. The Pope as far as I'm concerned, can drop dead.

Simon666

11-13-2003, 06:39 AM

November 2003

Vatican Continues Lies About Condoms (http://www.libchrist.com/std/vaticanlies.html)

"Relying on condoms is like betting on your own death," said Cardinal Alfonso Lopez Trujillo, the Vatican's spokesperson on family affairs, last week. He reiterated his opinion that condoms are too permeable to prevent the spread of HIV and AIDS, an opinion that Bishops and Cardinals are repeating across four continents.

The World Health Organization immediately denounced this view, saying it was particularly dangerous while the world faces a pandemic that has already killed 20 million people. Scientific research by groups such as the U.S. National Institutes of Health has found "intact condoms... are essentially impermeable" to HIV, and that "condoms provide a highly effective barrier to transmission" of HIV. The Vatican's Trujillo responded: "They are wrong about that... this is an easily recognizable fact."

Ironically--and disastrously--the Catholic Church is growing fastest in Africa, where AIDS is not just killing individuals, but also depopulating entire towns and destroying the demographic balance of a half-dozen countries. In Kenya, for example, where an estimated 20% of people have HIV, the Church condemns condoms for promoting promiscuity and repeats the absurd claim about permeability. Nairobi Archbishop Raphael Ndingi Nzeki says "AIDS... has grown so fast because of the availability of condoms." Mistrusting condoms, many infected Africans are still trying to cure AIDS by having sex with virgins, further fueling the epidemic.

Once again, the Catholic Church has set itself in opposition to science. It is a too-straight line from the torture of Galileo, forced to retract his discoveries before the Inquisition, to this latest rejection of scientific truth.

But ultimate responsibility for Cardinal Trujillo's death-inviting manifesto lies not with him, but with his supervisor--Pope John Paul II. And in this, the Pope's hands are very, very dirty.

While the Pope's impending death has inspired an international outburst of sentimental tunnel vision (including the demonic idea of awarding him the Nobel Peace Prize), let's focus on reality. This is a Pope who took an emerging, liberalizing institution and sent it reeling backwards by centuries--not accidentally, and not once or twice, but meticulously, in hundreds of ways small and large. Whether by divine inspiration or more earthly design, this man has undone the work of his predecessors, ushering in a totalitarian Papal regime.

Recall that after Pope John XXIII assumed the papacy in 1958, he convened a Vatican Council to end centuries of what he called "holy isolation," exhorting the church to participate in humanity's struggle for peace and justice. He died shortly after, but by the 1970s, Catholics were playing a leading role in resistance to apartheid. "Liberation theology" was reconnecting the church with the impoverished peasants of Latin America. In Europe and North America, archaic ideas about gender and sexuality were under challenge.

The future John Paul II attended the Vatican Council meetings in the 1960s and opposed the changes. Upon taking office he undertook to reverse them. For twenty-five years, the Pope has refused to recognize the role that contraception could play in reducing the world's poverty and hunger he claims to care so much about. Now near death, he stubbornly refuses to support the many non-monogamous members of his flock in battling the disease that is destroying them.

According to Time Magazine, John Paul II has "steadfastly held the line against those...who saw in Vatican II an opening to democratize the Church... inside the Church his own rule will be remembered as nothing if not authoritarian."

Lamentably, the Pope's death will not rescue the Church or its followers, because he has appointed 96% of the Cardinals who will choose his successor. He has, in effect, picked his replacement.

By resorting to lies about condoms, the Vatican reveals its mistrust in the faith of its own flock; fearing that people won't abstain from condoms for theological reasons, the Church provides pseudo-scientific ones. And in resorting to autocracy, it shows it doesn't trust its own future.

Source: "Reprinted from Sexual Intelligence, ©Marty Klein, Ph.D. (www.SexEd.org)."

Simon666

11-13-2003, 06:42 AM

Originally posted by Blueangel
So...you've all jumped from stem cell research to condoms?
The title of this thread is about the Pope condemning it, as if he is a moral authority or has the power to know. If you look at his position on condoms and other contraceptive, you can see he has no moral authority, knows little about real life outside his marble and gold plated Vatican, and is a damn liar.

gopman

11-13-2003, 09:45 AM

Look Simon, if you want to disagree that's fine. Don't just hurl insults at the Pope. Frankly, until you die, there's no way for you to know for sure if you're right or wrong so it would be better not to step on the beliefs of others. As for condoms, taking a 15% chance that it will fail is in effect betting against your own life, assuming you even have a latex condom, and it's reasonable that the church would preach abstinence.

"an opening to democratize the Church"

Since when is the word of God at the whim of the people? I'll tell you: it's not. This is exactly the kind of resistance to personal responsibility that I've been describing. You can't pick and choose what you want to believe and then call yourself Catholic. You can be Catholic, agnostic, buddhist, whatever. That's fine. Just don't call Catholics liars and murderers because they preach abstinence over contraception and inform people of the real risk you take when you use a condom.

"knows little about real life outside his marble and gold plated Vatican"

This man lived in Poland during the Nazi occupation. He has been all over the world. I think he knows a little bit about how tough it can be out there. And he knows it's not easy to practice abstinence, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be done.

gopman

11-13-2003, 09:48 AM

"Everybody including gopman seems here bent on declaring mullahs keep people dumb and uneducated or spread lies and desinformation"

That's just not true.

"There is nothing in the Bible on stem cells or where life starts"

Jesus says in the Bible, "I knew you in your mother's womb." From this we can infer that life starts before birth. The Pope spends alot of time looking at this stuff, and until you've studied the Bible as much as him, you can't make assertions like that one.

Simon666

11-13-2003, 10:06 AM

Originally posted by gopman
That's just not true.
I apologize, I only assumed this to be your position, I have not actually seen it yet, or not that I remember.
Originally posted by gopman
Jesus says in the Bible, "I knew you in your mother's womb." From this we can infer that life starts before birth. The Pope spends alot of time looking at this stuff, and until you've studied the Bible as much as him, you can't make assertions like that one.
Something religious people like to do is to take things literally and if they are not literal stretch their interpretation. You're really stretching it. :rolleyes: I know without studying the bible that microscopes or even the concept of cells did not exist yet at the time and are thus not covered.

Blueangel

11-13-2003, 10:23 AM

Ok Simon, so your aim with this thread is to be critical of the Pope and the Catholic Church.
I can handle that.

I'm from the school of thought that all public figures and organisations should be up to, and able to withstand public scrutiny.

I'm a born, brought up and educated Catholic. I'm now an agnostic.
There's a lot of truth in your statement that the excellent Catholic education system actually encourages intelligent people to question more deeply. My teachers were of excellent calibre.
I often wonder how they could resolve themselves to accept the Catholic doctrine when much of it was the antithesis of what they were teaching?
I guess that's faith for you!

I concede that many of the Pope's recent statements have been unacceptable and offensive but I still admire the man.
We can never dismiss the good that the current pontiff has done. His work with Lech Walesa to defeat communism, has totally changed the face of Europe.
As far as I'm concerned, JPII was the right man for the job at the right time! To deny his impact on World politics would be serious folly on your part.
The Pope actively preaches understanding and acceptance between the faiths and this has to be a good thing.
He also stood up to Bush and Blair against war in Iraq. Again, commendable.

So back to the crux of your arguement...
Is the Catholic church wrong in stating that condoms aren't an effective measure against Aids...?
No!
Condoms are fallible! That's a fact.
When a condom fails, the consequences are dire.

For example...and as a silly, but factual aside...with condoms it's not a case of one size fits all.
There was a study a few years ago in a Meditteranean country (Spain I believe), where condoms were marketed in three sizes.
The largest size sold out, which is hardly an accurate sample of the male population but says more about the male ego than anything.

To summise, the only truely effective measure against the spread of Aids is education and abstinence.

Simon666

11-13-2003, 10:24 AM

Originally posted by gopman
Look Simon, if you want to disagree that's fine. Don't just hurl insults at the Pope. Frankly, until you die, there's no way for you to know for sure if you're right or wrong so it would be better not to step on the beliefs of others. As for condoms, taking a 15% chance that it will fail is in effect betting against your own life, assuming you even have a latex condom, and it's reasonable that the church would preach abstinence.
Asking not to insult the Pope is to me like asking not to insult Saddam. Until I die, there is indeed no way of knowing if I'm right or wrong and the same goes for the Pope, so he'd better stop pushing people to their death by spreading his beliefs and lies about condoms to others. Works both ways. And where did you get that 156% figure? From the website of the Vatican? :rolleyes: From the article I gave, from liberated christians, they report the rate of breakage for good quality condoms is less than 3 or 4 condoms per 100 condoms used, although rates as low as 1% to 2% have been reported in studies from Zambia, Ghana, and Mali. And even 15% would be far better than the chances you'll have Aids when having sex unprotected with an infected person.
Originally posted by gopman
Since when is the word of God at the whim of the people? I'll tell you: it's not. This is exactly the kind of resistance to personal responsibility that I've been describing. You can't pick and choose what you want to believe and then call yourself Catholic. You can be Catholic, agnostic, buddhist, whatever. That's fine. Just don't call Catholics liars and murderers because they preach abstinence over contraception and inform people of the real risk you take when you use a condom.
The Bible is, unlike the Koran which is for all muslims believed to be the exact words of God written down by Mohammed, NOT the word of God. With this you have exposed yourself as fundamentalist. I don't call all catholics liars, I call specific catholics liars, namely those that spread false facts about condoms, that can be disproven scientifically as wrong.
Originally posted by gopman
[/b]This man lived in Poland during the Nazi occupation. He has been all over the world. I think he knows a little bit about how tough it can be out there. And he knows it's not easy to practice abstinence, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be done. [/B]
He lived in Poland and that's all you have. Travelling around the world means nothing, his travels have all been arranged for him, and who he shakes hands with, what heeats etcetera. He has not been confronted with the real situation on the field, he knows nothing about sexuality other than what has been endoctrinated into his sick mind. He has no practical experience in this field yet he imposes his false beliefs on others.

Simon666

11-13-2003, 10:33 AM

Originally posted by Blueangel
I concede that many of the Pope's recent statements have been unacceptable and offensive but I still admire the man.
We can never dismiss the good that the current pontiff has done. His work with Lech Walesa to defeat communism, has totally changed the face of Europe. As far as I'm concerned, JPII was the right man for the job at the right time! To deny his impact on World politics would be serious folly on your part.
The Pope actively preaches understanding and acceptance between the faiths and this has to be a good thing. He also stood up to Bush and Blair against war in Iraq. Again, commendable.
I don't deny he has had an influence for the good, like for the fall of communism. The condemnation of the Iraq war is also good, although I believe gopman will probably and huypocritically be selectively not hearing this one even if he just gave me a speach of not being able to be selective in faith. Yet I'm afraid this may be outweighed and overshadowed by the millions of deaths from Aids by spreading lies about condoms. As well as millions of others from poverty, hunger and easily curable diseases due to overpopulation caused by again spreading lies as well as a fundamentalist doctrine towards anticonceptives even within marriage.
Originally posted by Blueangel
So back to the crux of your arguement...Is the Catholic church wrong in stating that condoms aren't an effective measure against Aids...? No! Condoms are fallible! That's a fact.
When a condom fails, the consequences are dire.
If used properly, a condom can be effective. What the catholic church does is spread propaganda that all condoms simply can't be safe as the Aids virus is to small and can even pass through the net formed by latex molecules. Which is a blatant lie, scientifically incorrect. Why does everybody here have a problem recognizing the facts? Is admiration for this great ayatollah clouding people's minds?

Blueangel

11-13-2003, 11:06 AM

Originally posted by Simon666
Is admiration for this great ayatollah clouding people's minds? Right! Even I find that statement inappropriate and inaccurate.
Let's raise our standards on this one.

I fully understand your grievences and concerns with the population explosion in the World's more deprived areas.
but do you not see that this is more a matter of anthropology than strictly religious doctrine?
Granted, the chuches stance on birth control isn't helping the issues but there is a lot more to it.

Many people in deprived nations have no access to things that us Westerners take for granted, e.g. pensions. Thus, they deliberately have large families almost as an insurance policy to protect them in their old age.

I believe we need to think outside the box on this one.

It's incredibly easy to villify the Catholic church for some of the World's ills. It's more difficult to contend with the real issues such as the governments and millitia that often control these regions.
Third World Debt, government sanctions because of clashes of ideology, etc, etc, etc...

The church is in the priviliged position of being able to reach these millions at a grass roots level and they do need to up the ante in many areas of their doctrine.

Currently, it's a lose/lose situation but it could so easily be reversed and I believe the church will be of great assistance in making this happen.
As long as the Pontiff has the ear of World leaders, let's hope he uses it to the advantage of the under-priviliged.
I'm a great admirer of Bono and Bob Geldof for their empassioned commitment to eradicating Third World Debt. Both are strong Catholics and both regularly consult with the Pope.
Oh to be a fly on the wall at those debates.

Simon666

11-13-2003, 11:27 AM

Originally posted by Blueangel
Right! Even I find that statement inappropriate and inaccurate.
Let's raise our standards on this one.
Look, I've said that the catholic church has spreaded lies (Aids virus can move through pores form by net of latex molecules) that have been scientifically proven wrong yet you claim the Pope is not wrong because if you don't use them correctly or if they break, they don't work. Well duh. That's another item. Condoms can fail, the chance of this happening is very low and certainly much lower than getting infected having sex unprotected. What the Pope claims is that all condoms are inherently ineffective as the Aids virus is too small. :rolleyes:
Originally posted by Blueangel
I fully understand your grievences and concerns with the population explosion in the World's more deprived areas. but do you not see that this is more a matter of anthropology than strictly religious doctrine? Granted, the chuches stance on birth control isn't helping the issues but there is a lot more to it. Many people in deprived nations have no access to things that us Westerners take for granted, e.g. pensions. Thus, they deliberately have large families almost as an insurance policy to protect them in their old age.
You should really have seen that BBC documentary, all of you, so you'ld understand a little better. Yes, they chose for large families, but that doesn't mean they want seven to nine, rather three to four for example. The Pope isn't exactly helping on this issue that isn't even covered in the Bible yet he forced his will onto others.
Originally posted by Blueangel
I believe we need to think outside the box on this one. It's incredibly easy to villify the Catholic church for some of the World's ills. It's more difficult to contend with the real issues such as the governments and millitia that often control these regions.
Third World Debt, government sanctions because of clashes of ideology, etc, etc, etc... The church is in the priviliged position of being able to reach these millions at a grass roots level and they do need to up the ante in many areas of their doctrine.
Look, there is ofcourse more to these problems than the Pope. But the catholic church has often a very large influence and with this comes an awful lot of responsibility. If they abuse this to create more Aids deaths and poverty with their propaganda and lies, they deserve to be villified. And this goes as far as excommunicating a 9 year old who got an abortion after she got pregnant after rape (http://www.victimsofabortionspeakout.org/A-R-017-Nicaragua-to-Investigate-9-Year-Old-Girls-Abortion.html), as well as those who promoted it and carried it out. They don't care about the physical toll on this young girl or even if she would die, they are stuck in their fundamentalist, nearly as bad as taliban beliefs.

gopman

11-13-2003, 12:24 PM

"What the Pope claims is that all [latex] condoms are inherently ineffective as the Aids virus is too small."

That's not the position of the Church. I provided the exact quote in a previous post. I concede that it may have been misinterpreted (possibly on purpose) by some individual clergymen. This is a very small segment of the Church, and doesn't reflect on the Pope himself.

As for the word of God, the Bible is the word of God as written by men through the divine inspiration of the Holy Spirit. (Which is one of God's forms) If God knew him in the womb, that means that he was in the womb. That's a direct logical inference and not a stretch at all. You don't need to know about cells to know that. And God doesn't need a microscope to know cells exist.

The Church didn't spread any lies. It informed people of the risks of condoms, and promoted abstinence. That's what the Bible says, and the Church exists to spread the word of the Bible. So the Church is trying to save lives. Encouraging people to live safely and in God's graces is not even close to being like the Taliban. Abstinence is clearly the best solution, and the people who spread the use of Contraception as being a failsafe against AIDS are probably responsible for more AIDS deaths.

As for the 9 year old, abortion is immoral, and her life wasn't at risk if she delivered the child via caesarian section. And why do you assume the child's life is more valuable than the baby's? But abortion isn't the topic of this thread.

I think I've figured it out though. If you worship Satan, and you want to propagate his evil, then you must want people to die of AIDS. You already admitted your perverse desire to see the Pope die a slow and painful death. You also want to destroy the credibility of the Church so no one can be saved, and Satan's power can be increased. If that's what you want to do, then fine, but don't try to pass your lies off on me, and don't think you will to anyone else as long as I'm here to call you on them.

Simon666

11-13-2003, 12:41 PM

Originally posted by gopman
I think I've figured it out though. If you worship Satan, and you want to propagate his evil, then you must want people to die of AIDS. You already admitted your perverse desire to see the Pope die a slow and painful death. You also want to destroy the credibility of the Church so no one can be saved, and Satan's power can be increased. If that's what you want to do, then fine, but don't try to pass your lies off on me, and don't think you will to anyone else as long as I'm here to call you on them.
I think I know enough too. You're a christian fundamentalist who is apologetic towards the pope, takes the bible literally and stretches its implication to say whatever you think it says or wants it to say, and would rather see raped 9 year olds carry a child to birth than to chose for abortion. I'm going to ignore extremists like you. I like to see as little people as possible die from Aids, so I advocate correct information on how one can prevent Aids. You however have a "logic" of "life" above everything and above all reason which comes down to a logic of death. I only pretend to be evil as for fun, while you are evil. The policy of this board here does not allow ad hominem attacks, but this is probably my last one towards you as you'll be ignored.

gopman

11-13-2003, 12:48 PM

I'm no extremist man, I'm just a practicing Catholic. That's apparently so far beyond your comprehension that you have felt it necessary to attack everything I believe in with no basis other than your own beliefs. All I've done is try to back up my own beliefs with reason and facts and protect the Pope from baseless attacks on his character. I have no reason to be apologetic to the Pope because he's done nothing wrong, only preach abstinence, which is scientifically proven as the best and only 100% foolproof prevention of STDs. I don't take kindly to attacks on myself or honorable men like the Pope.

gopman

11-13-2003, 12:53 PM

"I only pretend to be evil as for fun"

If your idea of fun is insulting people with no reason and wishing slow painful deaths on people, then there's no pretending going on. Wanting life to be respected (no matter when you think it begins) and abstinence to be practiced is not evil, unless you have a seriously warped mind.

gopman

11-13-2003, 12:54 PM

"you'll be ignored"

It's not so fun to be called a liar, is it?

DRMIZER

11-13-2003, 01:01 PM

Time for a xanax GOP

gopman

11-13-2003, 01:15 PM

either that or a three-day bender.

up2date

11-13-2003, 01:27 PM

Originally posted by gopman
either that or a three-day bender. :lol:

Now that we've got the attacks out of the way, anyone remember what the issues are?

DRMIZER

11-14-2003, 11:28 AM

Originally posted by gopman
either that or a three-day bender.
That'll work!

You know 666, you really have some good points within your posts. I enjoy what you have to share. If you could tone it down a bit for us calmer types, we'd enjoy it much more. . . . . .

The pope a long painful death? . . . . . . . . . . .a bit much.

gopman

11-14-2003, 11:41 AM

"You know 666, you really have some good points"

I'll leave it at that. ;)

america

11-14-2003, 11:50 AM

Originally posted by cpwill
Yes, medical testing on Humans without their consent (even if it's to better other humans) is immoral.

if you disagree, you are free to reference Joseph Mengle and Unit 731.

wow, i agree with the Pope on something, who knew?:D :cool: :angel: :lol:

thoss52

11-15-2003, 03:12 PM

the church use to say inter racial marriage is sin , that organ transplant is a sin , in fact uses to say if you where cremated its a sin , you must be hole with all your part to be resurrected .

they uses to kill people that said the earth was round and not the center of the universe

DRMIZER

11-16-2003, 11:48 AM

Some churches still believe in exactly what you write.

america

11-16-2003, 12:21 PM

Originally posted by DRMIZER
Some churches still believe in exactly what you write.

i am against organ donations and can't find a church that doesn't believe in it other than jehova and can't do the jehova thing

thoss52

11-16-2003, 12:28 PM

why would you be against organ donation ?

america

11-16-2003, 06:31 PM

Originally posted by thoss52
why would you be against organ donation ?

I am against organ donation because I have watched the door open to other issues and I think it is a precursor to evil.
The end of the story they will begin harvesting babies and poor children for body parts for the rich.

gopman

11-16-2003, 06:35 PM

............................................?

america

11-16-2003, 06:56 PM

Originally posted by gopman
............................................? :D :D
here is an outline for you:

first they legalize abortion
then late stage abortion
then a few days old
then a little older

then we will have all the discussions of the legal battles, just as they did with "regular abortions" using the placenta, then they get the stem cells, then this and that,
then discussions on why waste the grown fetus that was removed from the mother, it can save tons of lives,
then discussions on the baby cannot have any quality of life because of its physical problems, so keep it alive long enough to harvest the organs

after a few years people are use to the idea of using body parts of some to save the life of others

then scroll up a few more years, the discussions will be why support the prisoners for life? we are there now, then it will be a slow bit of maneuvering and legal doublespeach about how the organs could be put to use, here is what they will say "he did nothing good in life, maybe in his death he can do some good" then they will show the sweetest person on t.v waiting for an organ.

scroll up a few years
people will be deemed hopeless based on financial, political, or religious belief's, whatever the loser category is and they will use them as body parts.

Who knows to what extent it could get to? I know one thing the envelope is always pushed.
Maybe during war we will gather the populations to do experiments on etc.
I just don't want to go through the cracked door.

thoss52

11-16-2003, 07:12 PM

Originally posted by america
I am against organ donation because I have watched the door open to other issues and I think it is a precursor to evil.
The end of the story they will begin harvesting babies and poor children for body parts for the rich.

what a load of crap and such an excuse not to help people . they have bin taking blood and giving it to people for years yet how many poor people are robed of their blood . what evil is turning your back on the injured and ill .
but thats your choice I'm a full donor . skin bones blood organ if it can help some els then great

america

11-17-2003, 12:32 AM

Originally posted by thoss52
what a load of crap and such an excuse not to help people . they have bin taking blood and giving it to people for years yet how many poor people are robed of their blood . what evil is turning your back on the injured and ill .
but thats your choice I'm a full donor . skin bones blood organ if it can help some els then great

ick! another reason I don't want to have anyone's organs. The HORROR!

but feel free to let them play frankenstien on you,
ever see anyone who had an organ rejection? ain't pretty.

cpwill

11-17-2003, 02:25 AM

hmmm.... well america, as long as they keep it within reason, i really don't see this path that you describe happening (although i will admit, slides occur)

i am a christian, and i am an organ donor. i looked on it as one last chance to offer a service as a servant to another.

Simon666

11-17-2003, 04:25 AM

Just on a side note: the Jehovas are a fundamentalist sect based upon the literal interpretation of the Bible even though the Bible contradicts itself on many occasions and is unlike the Koran not claimed to be the literal word of God by christianity nor the Bible itself.

Just like many other sects, the elite is very rich by exploiting the naivety of its members. They also often have organ or blood donations if their family members get ill but pressure the lower members not to do this even in the face of death. They are wicked and evil.

america

11-17-2003, 03:07 PM

Originally posted by Simon666
Just on a side note: the Jehovas are a fundamentalist sect based upon the literal interpretation of the Bible even though the Bible contradicts itself on many occasions and is unlike the Koran not claimed to be the literal word of God by christianity nor the Bible itself.

Just like many other sects, the elite is very rich by exploiting the naivety of its members. They also often have organ or blood donations if their family members get ill but pressure the lower members not to do this even in the face of death. They are wicked and evil.

as another side note I am not a jehova just in case someone thought so, they could make me angry if I let them, I don't.
In fact when they pop up at my door, usually at an inconvenient time, I welcome them in and pretend to listen out of respect.
They are only doing what they think they should be doing, and practicing their religion. that is one of our freedom's.
One is rather quite pleasant in fact and I have learned to like her, persistent little thing.
I am against Jehova religion because they do not celebrate christmas or want the cross as a way of worshipping Jesus,
I suspect it was created by yet another one of satan's little elves to get rid of christianity, warp it and to cause strife.
As you say the little people do not know that so why be angry at them?
But.... here is how I feel.
If someone said to me "I donated my daughters organs so that another could live." I would reply "oh that was very nice of you" and try to say something else that I thought would make the person feel good. Knowing that the donated the organs with the idea they were doing something they felt right.
However if I say I don't believe in organ donation, then I am told I am selfish, mean, fanatic, all sorts of things. Just because my mind has not been fooled by the media.

Besides of what I had mentioned on the road to Frankenstein, do you realize body parts, dna, fluids, etc. are a big money making business for some? Under the disquise of biotech??
I am warning you it is a bad road to follow.

Next time you have surgery, read the fine print, it will say something like "anything removed, tissue, could be placed with other individuals or companies....... research, products.......

I am not sure of the exact warning but believe me it does not spell out 'we sell your parts for cash' but if you read it carefully that is what it says.

most people who go to surgery are worried about the surgery itself, and when the nurse says "this is a consent for surgery" it also has other consents in it. Most people are too much in pain, or worried to read a big document and just sign it.

thoss52

11-17-2003, 03:17 PM

as an observation christan science does not either but to say your against Jehovies because they don't worship you're way ? wow , you must hate me , I'm pagan I don't believe in jesus at all nor your dark God satan or anything about it . but I don't hate you not even anything against you , I just don't trust you . as fare as organ transplant ? it voluntary no one will steel them from you , if you're that paranoid then why take the chance ? I wouldn't go under surgery at all you don't know what they mite help them selfs to .

Originally posted by america
as another side note I am not a jehova just in case someone thought so, they could make me angry if I let them, I don't.
In fact when they pop up at my door, usually at an inconvenient time, I welcome them in and pretend to listen out of respect.
They are only doing what they think they should be doing, and practicing their religion. that is one of our freedom's.
One is rather quite pleasant in fact and I have learned to like her, persistent little thing.
I am against Jehova religion because they do not celebrate christmas or want the cross as a way of worshipping Jesus,
I suspect it was created by yet another one of satan's little elves to get rid of christianity, warp it and to cause strife.
As you say the little people do not know that so why be angry at them?
But.... here is how I feel.
If someone said to me "I donated my daughters organs so that another could live." I would reply "oh that was very nice of you" and try to say something else that I thought would make the person feel good. Knowing that the donated the organs with the idea they were doing something they felt right.
However if I say I don't believe in organ donation, then I am told I am selfish, mean, fanatic, all sorts of things. Just because my mind has not been fooled by the media.

Besides of what I had mentioned on the road to Frankenstein, do you realize body parts, dna, fluids, etc. are a big money making business for some? Under the disquise of biotech??
I am warning you it is a bad road to follow.

Next time you have surgery, read the fine print, it will say something like "anything removed, tissue, could be placed with other individuals or companies....... research, products.......

I am not sure of the exact warning but believe me it does not spell out 'we sell your parts for cash' but if you read it carefully that is what it says.

most people who go to surgery are worried about the surgery itself, and when the nurse says "this is a consent for surgery" it also has other consents in it. Most people are too much in pain, or worried to read a big document and just sign it.

america

11-17-2003, 03:44 PM

Originally posted by thoss52
as an observation christan science does not either but to say your against Jehovies because they don't worship you're way ? wow , you must hate me , I'm pagan I don't believe in jesus at all nor your dark God satan or anything about it . but I don't hate you not even anything against you , I just don't trust you . as fare as organ transplant ? it voluntary no one will steel them from you , if you're that paranoid then why take the chance ? I wouldn't go under surgery at all you don't know what they mite help them selfs to .

I don't hate jehova's I said I don't agree with their religion,
and you don't agree with mine either so you are no better than me.
take the thorn out of your eye before you take the splinter out of mine.
i don't care if your pagan or what you believe in to tell you the truth, it won't change my world one iota,
eternity is a long time, if it doesn't bother you it doesn't bother me, you must really really believe in what you believe to take the risk, you must have some real proof! please share.
believe me I will not have surgery if I can help it, and apparently it may be neccesary to hire body watchers.