Atheism

[Ethos]

Since there seems to be the occasional misconception of what atheism entails, I thought it would be appropriate to create a thread dedicated to the definitions and qualifications of the 'atheist'. The following website actually has some decent material relating to "myths and misconceptions" of atheism.

Interestingly (and perhaps ironic) is the apologetics-ish feel of the information as it is presented and categorized.


Subtopics
Atheism As Rebellion, Pride (12)
Atheism Causes Hopelessness (8)
Atheism is Not a Religion (7)
Atheism, Atheists, Morals (12)
Fundamentalist Atheists (17)
Are Atheists Anti-Religion? (8)
Knowledge of Religion, God (9)
What Do Atheists Believe? (5)
Is Atheism Dangerous? (8)
Atheism, Science, Evolution (8)
What Do Atheists Worship? (9)
Atheists Anti-Christian? (5)



http://atheism.about.com/od/atheismmyths/Atheism_Myths_Misconceptions_How_Theists_Misrepres ent_Atheism.htm

In the case of fundamentalist atheism, I actually disagree that the capacity in this regard is as limited as the contributions suggest. Not surprising, even atheists disagree on some points, just like theists.

Ethos

[serenity]

Not surprising, even atheists disagree on some points, just like theists.

Oh, sure. That’s true. I personally feel that an awful lot of atheists tend to caricature the faithful—not necessarily religion itself—I agree with most of what I’ve heard about religion—but the actual faithful get parodied often beyond recognition. One of the big errors is to think details don’t matter, when in fact they matter a lot. Sometimes atheists seem to perceive the more hardcore fundamentalist strains (especially of Christianity and Islam) as somehow perfectly symbolic of the whole. But really, once you start talking “symbolic of the whole,” you’re bound to see things in an oversimplified way.

(On that note, it astonishes me when professed Christians view Islam exactly in the way that many Christians argue—accurately, in my opinion—is unfair when pointed at themselves.)

[Groucho]

Good points. People will stereotype too often. Of course, the same goes for those people who wouldn't want their daughter to marry an atheist or would never vote for one and so on -- poll after poll show that otherwise open-minded people think there is absolutely nothing wrong with being prejudiced against atheists.

[Ethos]

There is certainly a stigma attached to being godless in a monotheistic society, though being a social or cultural deviant tends to have consequences.

Ethos

[serenity]

Good points. People will stereotype too often. Of course, the same goes for those people who wouldn't want their daughter to marry an atheist or would never vote for one and so on -- poll after poll show that otherwise open-minded people think there is absolutely nothing wrong with being prejudiced against atheists.

I agree completely. Atheism elicits a lot of unwarranted hostility among some people. I personally consider it a serious problem that an atheist could not get elected president. I think that’s a kind of mass, culture-wide insanity.

[Ethos]

I agree completely. Atheism elicits a lot of unwarranted hostility among some people. I personally consider it a serious problem that an atheist could not get elected president. I think that’s a kind of mass, culture-wide insanity.

I'm not sure you're being fair in this criticism. What we're talking about is a basic psychological process. People are naturally going to be more comfortable electing a leader whose beliefs are more closely aligned with their own. I have no doubt that if the circumstances were reversed - a country with majority of atheists - a Christian would find it very difficult to win political office, despite being appropriately qualified for the position.

Ethos

[serenity]

I'm not sure you're being fair in this criticism. What we're talking about is a basic psychological process. People are naturally going to be more comfortable electing a leader whose beliefs are more closely aligned with their own. I have no doubt that if the circumstances were reversed - a country with majority of atheists - a Christian would find it very difficult to win political office, despite being appropriately qualified for the position.


Fair enough, it's true that society changes and shifts. We'll say that "insanity" is the wrong word.

[Groucho]

Well, I am not sure. I have voted for Christians and Jews and may even do so even if an atheist were running, because that's not the only thing I consider when choosing a candidate.

That's different from saying "I will never vote for a Christain no matter how much I agree with everything else about the candidate" which is what people say about atheists -- they see being an atheist and completely disqualifying someone.

[AgentM]

Well, I am not sure. I have voted for Christians and Jews and may even do so even if an atheist were running, because that's not the only thing I consider when choosing a candidate.

Same here, even though I'm an atheist, a candidates religion or lack there of is inconsequential to me. Unless of course they let it start affecting their political views. I mean if atheists refused to vote for religious people in elections, we'd be severely limiting ourself, it'd be just silly.

Edit: Instead of say, the candidates letting their religion affect their politics, I suppose I should say if they have religious-based views that I don't agree with (anti-gay marriage etc).

[Ethos]

Well, I am not sure. I have voted for Christians and Jews and may even do so even if an atheist were running, because that's not the only thing I consider when choosing a candidate.

That's different from saying "I will never vote for a Christain no matter how much I agree with everything else about the candidate" which is what people say about atheists -- they see being an atheist and completely disqualifying someone.

It's important to recognize that atheists are not above typical considerations of similarity in regard to voting for a politician. Would I prefer to have the most powerful man in the world believe in something other than End Times prophecy? Sure, but as you put it, that doesn't mean this is the only thing I consider when voting. That being said, as much as I would like to think all atheists are as open-minded, I know there are those who consider religion a foolish enterprise whose conscripts are unintelligent or worse.

One of the reasons why an atheist would not be elected is ignorance; something that this thread is designed to challenge. The notions of atheists being without morals or hope, as an example, are widespread among the faithful. Despite the increasing prominence of authors like Richard Dawkins, there is not a lot of discussion of atheism in the public domain, so available information is unfortunately limited.

Ethos

[Lumpen Prole]

Same here, even though I'm an atheist, a candidates religion or lack there of is inconsequential to me. Unless of course they let it start affecting their political views. I mean if atheists refused to vote for religious people in elections, we'd be severely limiting ourself, it'd be just silly.

Edit: Instead of say, the candidates letting their religion affect their politics, I suppose I should say if they have religious-based views that I don't agree with (anti-gay marriage etc).

To be fair it isn't as if you've voted for theists over the plethora of atheistic candidates. I know of one openly atheist politician currently serving. Now, imagine that most candidates are atheist just as most are Christian (and virtually all are theists) in reality. I would predict that you would be voting for an atheist candidate virtually all of the time.

[Lumpen Prole]

I will add that recent polling has shown that atheists are the least trusted minority in the U.S. More distrusted and negatively viewed than homosexuals, immigrants, any racial or religious minority group. It might also be useful to note that as a country we have had only one Catholic president. I think this says something about reasons many people actually have for casting their votes. How many people wouldn't vote for a black candidate simply because he was black? How many would admit it (a more important question, in my opinion)? My point: not very many people today would admit not voting for a racial minority just because they aren't white, but I don't think people would generally have a problem with openly condemning an atheist just because.

[AgentM]

To be fair it isn't as if you've voted for theists over the plethora of atheistic candidates. I know of one openly atheist politician currently serving. Now, imagine that most candidates are atheist just as most are Christian (and virtually all are theists) in reality. I would predict that you would be voting for an atheist candidate virtually all of the time.

That's true, but that'd just be a statistical consequence of a society dominated by atheists. It's not really my policy to exclude someone based solely on religion. That's something a fundamentalist atheist might do, but I'm not one of those. Sure I disagree with and don't like religion, but it's not up to me to say what's right for everybody else. If I thought like that I'd be no better than fundamentalist evangelical Christians or fundamentalist Muslims or whatever who insist the rest of us are going to hell. I'm not going to sink to that level.

[Ethos]

I will add that recent polling has shown that atheists are the least trusted minority in the U.S. More distrusted and negatively viewed than homosexuals, immigrants, any racial or religious minority group. It might also be useful to note that as a country we have had only one Catholic president. I think this says something about reasons many people actually have for casting their votes. How many people wouldn't vote for a black candidate simply because he was black? How many would admit it (a more important question, in my opinion)? My point: not very many people today would admit not voting for a racial minority just because they aren't white, but I don't think people would generally have a problem with openly condemning an atheist just because.

Do you have the polling data handy? I remember seeing a similar result, but cannot recall from where. Really it would be more interesting to know why a majority would distrust atheists, in their own words of course. I suspect the dynamic has to do in no small part to the historical association of atheism to communism and/or immoral behavior.

There is no doubt a component of phobia involved as well. People would not know an atheist by looking at one, and there is a tendency for atheists to remain "in the closet" which only discourages the ability of others to learn.

Ethos

[Lumpen Prole]

Sure, your tending to vote for an atheist in our hypothetical society would (at least in part) be explained well with simple statistics. However, granted that atheists are probably the most stigmatized minority in the U.S. (excluding things like pedophiles, murderers, etc.) and that most people - candidates and voters alike - are theists, how apt would you be to even consider a theistic candidate if most politicians and people were atheists? I suspect a similar stigma would be attached to theists in our hypothetical society as is attached to atheists in our present one.

[Lumpen Prole]

Do you have the polling data handy? I remember seeing a similar result, but cannot recall from where. Really it would be more interesting to know why a majority would distrust atheists, in their own words of course. I suspect the dynamic has to do in no small part to the historical association of atheism to communism and/or immoral behavior.

There is no doubt a component of phobia involved as well. People would not know an atheist by looking at one, and there is a tendency for atheists to remain "in the closet" which only discourages the ability of others to learn.

Ethos

I would think that most people simply assume that an atheist would essentially by definition have no basis for morality. Apart from the recent publicity atheism has had due to Dawkins, Harris, etc., when's the only time you hear anything about atheists on the news? It's when some guy tries to get "God" removed from our money or pledge of allegiance. Apart from the inherent stigma of wickedness attached to atheism, I think people are annoyed by such antics (keeping in mind that's the only time they ever hear about an atheist).

Also:

MINNEAPOLIS / ST. PAUL (3/28/2006) -- American’s increasing acceptance of religious diversity doesn’t extend to those who don’t believe in a god, according to a national survey by researchers in the University of Minnesota’s department of sociology.

From a telephone sampling of more than 2,000 households, university researchers found that Americans rate atheists below Muslims, recent immigrants, gays and lesbians and other minority groups in “sharing their vision of American society.” Atheists are also the minority group most Americans are least willing to allow their children to marry.

Even though atheists are few in number, not formally organized and relatively hard to publicly identify, they are seen as a threat to the American way of life by a large portion of the American public. “Atheists, who account for about 3 percent of the U.S. population, offer a glaring exception to the rule of increasing social tolerance over the last 30 years,” says Penny Edgell, associate sociology professor and the study’s lead researcher.

Edgell also argues that today’s atheists play the role that Catholics, Jews and communists have played in the past—they offer a symbolic moral boundary to membership in American society. “It seems most Americans believe that diversity is fine, as long as every one shares a common ‘core’ of values that make them trustworthy—and in America, that ‘core’ has historically been religious,” says Edgell. Many of the study’s respondents associated atheism with an array of moral indiscretions ranging from criminal behavior to rampant materialism and cultural elitism.

Edgell believes a fear of moral decline and resulting social disorder is behind the findings. “Americans believe they share more than rules and procedures with their fellow citizens—they share an understanding of right and wrong,” she said. “Our findings seem to rest on a view of atheists as self-interested individuals who are not concerned with the common good.”

The researchers also found acceptance or rejection of atheists is related not only to personal religiosity, but also to one’s exposure to diversity, education and political orientation—with more educated, East and West Coast Americans more accepting of atheists than their Midwestern counterparts.

The study is co-authored by assistant professor Joseph Gerteis and associate professor Doug Hartmann. It’s the first in a series of national studies conducted the American Mosaic Project, a three-year project funded by the Minneapolis-based David Edelstein Family Foundation that looks at race, religion and cultural diversity in the contemporary United States. The study will appear in the April issue of the American Sociological Review.

http://www.ur.umn.edu/FMPro?-db=releases&-lay=web&-format=umnnewsreleases/releasesdetail.html&ID=2816&-Find

[AgentM]

Sure, your tending to vote for an atheist in our hypothetical society would (at least in part) be explained well with simple statistics. However, granted that atheists are probably the most stigmatized minority in the U.S. (excluding things like pedophiles, murderers, etc.) and that most people - candidates and voters alike - are theists, how apt would you be to even consider a theistic candidate if most politicians and people were atheists? I suspect a similar stigma would be attached to theists in our hypothetical society as is attached to atheists in our present one.

You may well be right, and I'm not claiming that your point isn't valid. However, I can only hypothesize my actions based on my feelings on the issue here and now.

I'd be interested in seeing polling on the attitude towards atheists here in Canada. However, I have not heard of such polls, and don't know if any have been done for us. Generally our politics are of a more secular nature than yours down in the US.

[Ethos]

I would think that most people simply assume that an atheist would essentially by definition have no basis for morality. Apart from the recent publicity atheism has had due to Dawkins, Harris, etc., when's the only time you hear anything about atheists on the news? It's when some guy tries to get "God" removed from our money or pledge of allegiance. Apart from the inherent stigma of wickedness attached to atheism, I think people are annoyed by such antics (keeping in mind that's the only time they ever hear about an atheist).


Of course this is part of the problem. If the only exposure to Christianity I receive happens to be watching Pat Robertson on television, I might have very inaccurate assumptions of what it means to be a Christian based on very narrow programming.

Then again, atheism doesn't lend itself well to media exploitation. It's not as if we have national organizations or press offices standing ready to spin stories for our benefit.

Ethos

[AgentM]

Then again, atheism doesn't lend itself well to media exploitation. It's not as if we have national organizations or press offices standing ready to spin stories for our benefit.

Ethos

Hmm, maybe we should create national atheist organizations for this purpose :D. I mean religious groups have their spin organizations, why can't we have ours?

[Lumpen Prole]

Hmm, maybe we should create national atheist organizations for this purpose :D. I mean religious groups have their spin organizations, why can't we have ours?

For a start, we'd have trouble getting millions of people to put money in our baskets every week.

[AgentM]

For a start, we'd have trouble getting millions of people to put money in our baskets every week.

True, we don't create the kind of zeal that makes people want to donate large sums of money.

[burntgorilla]

I find it amazing how religious people in the US are. I can't imagine the same levels over here. Religion doesn't come up in elections, as far as I know. I don't know what religion Gordon Brown is, I don't see why it would be relevant. Although a know a few diehards, I doubt very many people would care about the religion of their partner or their child's partner. America's unique all right...

[Ethos]

I find it amazing how religious people in the US are. I can't imagine the same levels over here. Religion doesn't come up in elections, as far as I know. I don't know what religion Gordon Brown is, I don't see why it would be relevant. Although a know a few diehards, I doubt very many people would care about the religion of their partner or their child's partner. America's unique all right...

Relative to most of the rest of the world, America is downright secular. As far as we do go in some regards, things could (and are) certainly be worse.

[steveksux]

I will add that recent polling has shown that atheists are the least trusted minority in the U.S. More distrusted and negatively viewed than homosexuals, immigrants, any racial or religious minority group. It might also be useful to note that as a country we have had only one Catholic president. I think this says something about reasons many people actually have for casting their votes. How many people wouldn't vote for a black candidate simply because he was black? How many would admit it (a more important question, in my opinion)? As long as he was running against an atheist, sounds like they would vote for a black candidate, even a homosexual candidate... ;)

My point: not very many people today would admit not voting for a racial minority just because they aren't white, but I don't think people would generally have a problem with openly condemning an atheist just because.I agree, and I think that greatly impacts the polling results above. Its ok to admit not voting for atheists. Its not ok to admit not voting for blacks, other minorities. So I think the polls are reflecting what people are comfortable admitting, not what they actually believe.

Randy

[steveksux]

Hmm, maybe we should create national atheist organizations for this purpose :D. I mean religious groups have their spin organizations, why can't we have ours?Its an uphill battle.
Atheists are going to have to go with really cool coffins to compete with an eternity in Heaven as a final reward.

Randy

[Lumpen Prole]

As long as he was running against an atheist, sounds like they would vote for a black candidate, even a homosexual candidate... ;)

I agree, and I think that greatly impacts the polling results above. Its ok to admit not voting for atheists. Its not ok to admit not voting for blacks, other minorities. So I think the polls are reflecting what people are comfortable admitting, not what they actually believe.

Randy

To an extent, perhaps. I still do not doubt that atheists are more distrusted than other minorities, all other things constant. A rich white atheist would surely win an election against a black gay transsexual atheist.

[steveksux]

To an extent, perhaps. I still do not doubt that atheists are more distrusted than other minorities, all other things constant. A rich white atheist would surely win an election against a black gay transsexual atheist.Hard for me to believe there is that much distrust of atheists....

Now the real way to tease out the relative distrust would be a rich white atheist running against a black gay transexual Christian... not an atheist...

Randy

[burntgorilla]

Relative to most of the rest of the world, America is downright secular. As far as we do go in some regards, things could (and are) certainly be worse.

I'm not sure that's true. I was trying to find a graph I found on religioustolerance.org, but I couldn't. It showed the amount of people who considered themselves Christian or went to church or something. America was right up in the first three, along with Northern Ireland. Compared to the rest of the developed world the US is something of an anomaly.

[Ethos]

I'm not sure that's true. I was trying to find a graph I found on religioustolerance.org, but I couldn't. It showed the amount of people who considered themselves Christian or went to church or something. America was right up in the first three, along with Northern Ireland. Compared to the rest of the developed world the US is something of an anomaly.

You will note I didn't say "developed world", only "world".

[Sgt Schultz]

Interesting thread. I have to ask how many of you have had the experience that I have when people discover that I am an atheist. Most are absolutely shocked. The usual line is they thought I was Christian because of the way that I act. Their preconceived notions are thrown out the window. I've lost a few people who I thought were friends because of it but most have realized their misconceptions are wrong though it is still a struggle for some of them at times.

[steveksux]

Interesting thread. I have to ask how many of you have had the experience that I have when people discover that I am an atheist. Most are absolutely shocked. The usual line is they thought I was Christian because of the way that I act. Their preconceived notions are thrown out the window. I've lost a few people who I thought were friends because of it but most have realized their misconceptions are wrong though it is still a struggle for some of them at times.I've been told I need to "get straight with Jesus" before... :lol:

Randy

[Ethos]

Interesting thread. I have to ask how many of you have had the experience that I have when people discover that I am an atheist. Most are absolutely shocked. The usual line is they thought I was Christian because of the way that I act. Their preconceived notions are thrown out the window. I've lost a few people who I thought were friends because of it but most have realized their misconceptions are wrong though it is still a struggle for some of them at times.

I haven't had overtly negative responses, although the pronouncement usually lands with a thud. People no doubt think you (or I) are Christian because most people are. The information available on atheists is limited and usually false, so it isn't a surprise that someone would have difficulty immediately relating.

Ethos

[burntgorilla]

You will note I didn't say "developed world", only "world".

But the developed world is a fairly big slice of the world. I'd say the Islamic world is much more religious, but I'm not sure that other parts are a lot more religious than the US. But that might be my ignorance.

Interesting thread. I have to ask how many of you have had the experience that I have when people discover that I am an atheist. Most are absolutely shocked. The usual line is they thought I was Christian because of the way that I act. Their preconceived notions are thrown out the window. I've lost a few people who I thought were friends because of it but most have realized their misconceptions are wrong though it is still a struggle for some of them at times.

See, I can't imagine anyone getting that reaction here.

[Sgt Schultz]

I've been told I need to "get straight with Jesus" before... :lol:

Randy

Yeah, I have heard that one too, sometimes the language is much stronger, and not what I would consider very christian like! :lol:

[serenity]

Relative to most of the rest of the world, America is downright secular. As far as we do go in some regards, things could (and are) certainly be worse.


That's true, but we are the most religious among the developed nations. By some large order of magnitude.

[Ethos]

That's true, but we are the most religious among the developed nations. By some large order of magnitude.

Yes we are, and you can trust this is not something I am thrilled about.

[AgentM]

See, I can't imagine anyone getting that reaction here.

Same here in Canada.

[Sgt Schultz]

Same here in Canada.

Don't get me wrong. I've been threatened, yelled at and have had people back up away from me with fear in their eyes. But the reaction I was talking about was from people I knew or worked with on a daily basis for a while while I was on active duty that had no idea of my beliefs.

[AgentM]

Don't get me wrong. I've been threatened, yelled at and have had people back up away from me with fear in their eyes. But the reaction I was talking about was from people I knew or worked with on a daily basis for a while while I was on active duty that had no idea of my beliefs.

You had all that happen to you simply because you were an atheist!? That kind of thing would never happen in Canada. Sometimes I wonder about Americans...

[Lumpen Prole]

Hard for me to believe there is that much distrust of atheists....

Now the real way to tease out the relative distrust would be a rich white atheist running against a black gay transexual Christian... not an atheist...

Randy

All other things constant, however, I see no reason to doubt that atheists are the most distrusted minority. Sure, the rich white atheist would probably win, but he represents only one minority group himself while the other represents three.

[burntgorilla]

You had all that happen to you simply because you were an atheist!? That kind of thing would never happen in Canada. Sometimes I wonder about Americans...

I just don't understand it. I think here most people would expect you to be atheist or agnostic, or maybe a Christian who never goes to church or prays but still believes in God. Or someone with a believe in some form of higher power.

[Sgt Schultz]

I just don't understand it. I think here most people would expect you to be atheist or agnostic, or maybe a Christian who never goes to church or prays but still believes in God. Or someone with a believe in some form of higher power.

The vast majority of people I know can't even fathom not believing in god. It is so against what they fundamentally believe that they have a hard time dealing with it. God and belief dominate every aspect of their lives. That I and others get along just fine without it scares them, or at least that is the impression I have gotten in conversations.

[burntgorilla]

The vast majority of people I know can't even fathom not believing in god. It is so against what they fundamentally believe that they have a hard time dealing with it. God and belief dominate every aspect of their lives. That I and others get along just fine without it scares them, or at least that is the impression I have gotten in conversations.

Sometimes I'm so glad I'm not American.

[AgentM]

The worst that I've ever had happen to me because of my atheism was some religious lady going "Eww" when I mentioned it. I've got friends and family who are religious to varying degrees. Almost all are pretty liberal. Usually people just shrug and get on with their lives, it doesn't come up as an issue between us. I've got one friend who I think is fundamentalist oriented, but we just don't really talk about it.

[serenity]

Canada is a bit different in this way. Prime Minister Harper is religious (in fact, I believe he is some sort of religious fundamentalist, though I'm not sure), but no one aside from about eleven Albertans really seem to give a damn.

[Groucho]

I am very proud of being an American, but our religious beliefs are not one of the reasons. I am ashamed that of all the advanced nations, we are next to last in belief in evolution, for instance. Quite depressing.

[heel31ok]

I am very proud of being an American, but our religious beliefs are not one of the reasons. I am ashamed that of all the advanced nations, we are next to last in belief in evolution, for instance. Quite depressing.

how does that make a difference either way to you?

it shows we are one of the last truly free thinking societies and have not closed our minds. we are free to think what we want.

To be so depressed it must be a really big deal to you.

[burntgorilla]

But science isn't like that. There's no freedom of thought in science. There's correct and incorrect.

[Lumpen Prole]

But science isn't like that. There's no freedom of thought in science. There's correct and incorrect.

False.

[Lumpen Prole]

how does that make a difference either way to you?

it shows we are one of the last truly free thinking societies and have not closed our minds. we are free to think what we want.

To be so depressed it must be a really big deal to you.

I suppose that means Turkey is more free-thinking than we are.

[burntgorilla]

False.

Well, obviously you're free to make decisions and discover things but there's right and wrong. You can't choose whether or not you think that quarks or black holes exist, for example.

[Lumpen Prole]

That's better. :cool:

[Groucho]

how does that make a difference either way to you?

it shows we are one of the last truly free thinking societies and have not closed our minds. we are free to think what we want.

To be so depressed it must be a really big deal to you.

It is a big deal, because it means many of our society are backward thinking. How would you feel if a large percentage of Americans believed the world was flat? It's the same thing in my mind -- a dismissal of science doesn't make anyone look like a "free thinker", it makes them look stupid.

[burntgorilla]

If you were truly proud of your country, Groucho, you'd be proud of the fact that your countrymen are free to be stupid!

[Groucho]

If you were truly proud of your country, Groucho, you'd be proud of the fact that your countrymen are free to be stupid!

:lol:

"Free to be Stupid" -- the new campaign slogan of the Republicans who don't believe in evolution!

I like it. "Huckabee -- Free to be stupid!" Yeah, that works. :D