Public schools: a perfect place to praise Jesus (Better than, say, a church)

[The Big Bog]

This high school is just a couple of counties or so west from where I grew up. It's my hubby's high school alma mater actually and he was the one who showed me the article in the newspaper.

What do you think? Does this cross the church/state line?

RUSSELL SPRINGS - "It's getting bigger and better every year," said Brian Rafferty, Pastor of Liberty Baptist Church. Several hundred worshippers attended the 3rd annual Laker Day, held at Russell County High School Gym last Sunday Rafferty said.

Those attending were greeted with praise and worship music performed by "One Purpose," Jamestown Christian Church's praise band. Many stood and joined in singing the prelude music.

The service continued with Russell County High School Band and Choir's performance of Amazing Grace. Once again, the congregation joined in singing the well known hymn.

Girls' Basketball Coach Craig Pippen shared his testimony and his commitment to be a Christian role model to his students and the community.

"I'm glad we have good Christian leaders in our school," said Jim Kingry, Pastor of Russell Springs First United Methodist Church.

Following Pippen, all Lakers from past to present including students, faculty, family and friends in the audience were recognized and asked to stand by Bill Sharpe, Russell County High School's football coach.

With the congregation on their feet, the Russell County High School Cheerleaders showed their Laker spirit by leading everyone in a Jesus cheer.

--snip--

http://russellcounty.net/06/story07.shtml



Couldn't this have just as easily been done in a church? Do you think there was any peer pressure to attend this event?

Why do you think certain religious leaders seem so intent on pushing that church/public school line? What do you think is their ultimate goal in holding events like these at public schools?

[Mickey Shane]

If I had know about it in advance I would have asked for equal time to address the Pagans in the group.

[Groucho]

As long as this public property is made available to any group that wishes to have a rally, I don't have a problem with it. And I'm an atheist.

Allowing any group that wishes to use the property to have it except a religious group would bother me.

[FilmFestGuy]

As long as this public property is made available to any group that wishes to have a rally, I don't have a problem with it. And I'm an atheist.

Allowing any group that wishes to use the property to have it except a religious group would bother me.

I would also ask - did the coaches and band directors force their kids to take part, or was it voluntary? If they were all forced into it, then that would be crossing a huge line for me.

[Ethos]

Obviously they hold these events in schools with the intent of influencing kids to attend.

However much like Groucho, I see no problem with after-hours rallies, as long as the facilities are equally available to everyone.

Ethos

[The Big Bog]

I guess y'all are right. Public school teachers and coaches vowing to be "Christian role models," use of the school mascot, school band, cheerleaders wearing the school's uniforms leading students in a Jesus cheer, use of school grounds.... No, there's no indoctrination going on here. What was I thinking?

And I'm certain that this community would not approach a similar pep rally for any other religion in a hostile way (keeping in mind that this is the same school that booed an atheist student at its graduation ceremony a couple years ago after he complained to the ACLU about Christian prayer at said ceremony).

Yeah, any armchair psych knows teens aren't influenced much by peer pressure. They all kind of do their own thing. :rolleyes:

[Ethos]

I guess y'all are right. Public school teachers and coaches vowing to be "Christian role models," use of the school mascot, school band, cheerleaders wearing the school's uniforms leading students in a Jesus cheer, use of school grounds.... No, there's no indoctrination going on here. What was I thinking?

And I'm certain that this community would not approach a similar pep rally for any other religion in a hostile way (keeping in mind that this is the same school that booed an atheist student at its graduation ceremony a couple years ago after he complained to the ACLU about Christian prayer at said ceremony).

Yeah, any armchair psych knows teens aren't influenced much by peer pressure. They all kind of do their own thing. :rolleyes:

I can think of worse types of peer pressure for a young teen to experience.

I certainly understand your concerns, and I share most of them, however the fact is there is no basis for legal objection unless it can be shown the location isn't available (and teachers not supportive) for other types of groups. This doesn't necessarily mean coaches and school mascots will become directly involved in the next Atheist Rally, but the line of church and state is not crossed as long as the activities are not held during school hours and attendence is not mandatory.

Ethos

[TomAZ]

"Amazing Grace" is allowed to use our public High School auditorium for services every Sunday morning. This same space is used for evening meetings of a local Freethinker group twice a month. No problem.

[Groucho]

I would also ask - did the coaches and band directors force their kids to take part, or was it voluntary? If they were all forced into it, then that would be crossing a huge line for me.

Absolutely. In fact, our school used to have an elected student government position called "chaplain" who would say a nondenominational prayer before meetings, and I made a big stink about it at the time (I was always a troublemaker).

However, this was held on a Sunday, when school was not in session, so I assume no one was required to attend.

[Groucho]

I guess y'all are right. Public school teachers and coaches vowing to be "Christian role models," use of the school mascot, school band, cheerleaders wearing the school's uniforms leading students in a Jesus cheer, use of school grounds.... No, there's no indoctrination going on here. What was I thinking?

And I'm certain that this community would not approach a similar pep rally for any other religion in a hostile way (keeping in mind that this is the same school that booed an atheist student at its graduation ceremony a couple years ago after he complained to the ACLU about Christian prayer at said ceremony).

Yeah, any armchair psych knows teens aren't influenced much by peer pressure. They all kind of do their own thing. :rolleyes:

I didn't say I liked it. I said I didn't see anything unconstitutional or illegal about it.

[Atticus]

I guess y'all are right. Public school teachers and coaches vowing to be "Christian role models," use of the school mascot, school band, cheerleaders wearing the school's uniforms leading students in a Jesus cheer, use of school grounds.... No, there's no indoctrination going on here. What was I thinking?

And I'm certain that this community would not approach a similar pep rally for any other religion in a hostile way (keeping in mind that this is the same school that booed an atheist student at its graduation ceremony a couple years ago after he complained to the ACLU about Christian prayer at said ceremony).

Yeah, any armchair psych knows teens aren't influenced much by peer pressure. They all kind of do their own thing. :rolleyes:I think you should test out your theory. Why not start an organization diametrically opposed to whatever you're objecting to and rent out the school? If they balk, hire an attorney. Make a big stink. Invite the media. You'll win, I guarantee it.

Of course, the social pressure not to do such a thing is pretty intense in Kentucky. But the only way these things change is to rally against them...even if you have to endure whatever nasty remarks come after "Bless her heart...." when they mention your name. :flowers:

[lord tammerlain]

The use of the public school for a religous event is fine,

Having school childern in school uniforms/teams take part is the questionable aspect of it.

Would the school and the community be as helpfull if a Shinto group wanted the same support from the school do you believe it would get it? I dont. I also would expect outrage from the local christian groups regarding some "foreign" religion corrupting their community

[AgentM]

The use of the public school for a religous event is fine,

Having school childern in school uniforms/teams take part is the questionable aspect of it.

I agree. It's just the latter bit that's the issue, and that's blurring the line between church and state a bit too much for my tastes.

[Ethos]

The use of the public school for a religous event is fine,

Having school childern in school uniforms/teams take part is the questionable aspect of it.

Would the school and the community be as helpfull if a Shinto group wanted the same support from the school do you believe it would get it? I dont. I also would expect outrage from the local christian groups regarding some "foreign" religion corrupting their community

You are probably correct, however it is the voluntary aspect we should be concerned about. If the school forced their students to show up in uniform for a Shinto group to show support for a non-Christian activity, that would in fact be a violation of the law.

If students voluntarily contribute to a program, whether doing so in uniform or not, there isn't a problem. Obviously we could argue about whether or not the students have an actual choice, but the event is not inherently unconstitutional unless that lack of choice can be demonstrated.

Ethos

[Sgt Schultz]

Why do you think certain religious leaders seem so intent on pushing that church/public school line? What do you think is their ultimate goal in holding events like these at public schools?

One of my friends who is very religious is an advocate for these kinds of activities all the time for one reason: many of those will show up at a school rally versus going to church on Sunday. It upsets him that everyone doesn't attend church so it needs to be pushed in the school system to get more followers.

[Atticus]

the event is not inherently unconstitutional unless that lack of choice can be demonstrated.

EthosRight. It's all about how the directing teacher acted regarding participation. He can't make a grade dependent on participation or even suggest that anyone is "letting down the team" if the don't go. Peer pressure, on the other hand, is something beyond the school's control--and considering the area, peer pressure might be significant.

[Sgt Schultz]

Right. It's all about how the directing teacher acted regarding participation. He can't make a grade dependent on participation or even suggest that anyone is "letting down the team" if the don't go. Peer pressure, on the other hand, is something beyond the school's control--and considering the area, peer pressure might be significant.

That would be especially true of the school band.

[halfamind]

If I had been a high school student of that particular school, I would have probably arrived with a simple sign that said "Matthew 6.5", which I would then wave about with rapt abandon, chuckling to myself that precious few there would realize its signifigance.

[The Big Bog]

I can think of worse types of peer pressure for a young teen to experience.
Well I can think of worse things than gun control too but that doesn't mean it's not a debate worth having.

Stories like this send a chill up my spine. When I was a youngster, I recall being asked by my second grade teacher every Monday morning for a show of hands as to who attended church the previous day. Sure, if I wanted to look at a situation like this in a vacuum as many of you are doing, then I would say there's absolutely nothing wrong with the teacher asking her students this question. She's just exercising her "freedom of speech" or something. Or perhaps she's just taking a survey for an academic paper she's writing, and that absent any evidence that she's treating the church attendees differently from the non-attendees, then I really ought to just get over it. You really think the kids who didn't raise their hand every Monday morning for Ms. Charlene didn't feel belittled?

I sense that many of you have very little understanding of the typical small town atmosphere. The pressure to conform in these communities is tremendous. More often than not, the notion of what it means to be a Christian in these towns is also entwined with small mindedness and a certain level of bigotry toward outsiders--if they're not like you, they're probably bad.

I was indoctrinated into all of this at a very early age. After one Saturday afternoon of feeling especially pressured by a little old lady in our church, I became "saved" and then later was baptized into Christianity. I was 12 when this happened. Teachers in my school regularly talked about church. The Ten Commandments hung on our classroom walls years after the Supreme Court had declared such displays unconstitutional. In college, I enrolled in the school's honors program but dropped out after the first semester because they were making us study the writings of ancient thinkers and writers (Plato, Aeschylus, Homer, etc.) that included references to multiple gods and that conflicted with my narrow, pristine view of the world. Years later, when I finally opened my eyes to the realization that Christianity is but one belief system in the whole gamut of ideas about the universe, I feel cheated. I feel deprived of the knowledge and experiences that was at my fingertips from age 12 to 22 that I otherwise recoiled from as a teen and young adult. I had no real thirst for knowledge because I already had all the answers given to me ... at age 12!

That's probably why I feel so uncomfortable with rallies such as these. Of course they're tremendously successful--you're targeting the young and impressionable in somewhat of a captive environment. Would it hold up in court? Who cares. Is it a good thing for the kids? Not in my view.

[bowerbird]

Well I can think of worse things than gun control too but that doesn't mean it's not a debate worth having.

Stories like this send a chill up my spine. When I was a youngster, I recall being asked by my second grade teacher every Monday morning for a show of hands as to who attended church the previous day. Sure, if I wanted to look at a situation like this in a vacuum as many of you are doing, then I would say there's absolutely nothing wrong with the teacher asking her students this question. She's just exercising her "freedom of speech" or something. Or perhaps she's just taking a survey for an academic paper she's writing, and that absent any evidence that she's treating the church attendees differently from the non-attendees, then I really ought to just get over it. You really think the kids who didn't raise their hand every Monday morning for Ms. Charlene didn't feel belittled?

I sense that many of you have very little understanding of the typical small town atmosphere. The pressure to conform in these communities is tremendous. More often than not, the notion of what it means to be a Christian in these towns is also entwined with small mindedness and a certain level of bigotry toward outsiders--if they're not like you, they're probably bad.

I was indoctrinated into all of this at a very early age. After one Saturday afternoon of feeling especially pressured by a little old lady in our church, I became "saved" and then later was baptized into Christianity. I was 12 when this happened. Teachers in my school regularly talked about church. The Ten Commandments hung on our classroom walls years after the Supreme Court had declared such displays unconstitutional. In college, I enrolled in the school's honors program but dropped out after the first semester because they were making us study the writings of ancient thinkers and writers (Plato, Aeschylus, Homer, etc.) that included references to multiple gods and that conflicted with my narrow, pristine view of the world. Years later, when I finally opened my eyes to the realization that Christianity is but one belief system in the whole gamut of ideas about the universe, I feel cheated. I feel deprived of the knowledge and experiences that was at my fingertips from age 12 to 22 that I otherwise recoiled from as a teen and young adult. I had no real thirst for knowledge because I already had all the answers given to me ... at age 12!

That's probably why I feel so uncomfortable with rallies such as these. Of course they're tremendously successful--you're targeting the young and impressionable in somewhat of a captive environment. Would it hold up in court? Who cares. Is it a good thing for the kids? Not in my view.



A true believer! I guess coming from a rather athiestic society and having only a light brush with religion as a child I grew up interested in ALL religions and long ago came to the very Buddhist belief that all roads lead to God. That there are may ways to reach enlightenment.

But I agree with you that some of the more evangelical can, well creep you out - a lot.

I have been asked on a nursing board whether we "witness to the lord" and I had to ask what the !@#@ that meant!

When I was told what it was and that there were NURSES who ACTUALLY did this I was appalled - to me too much like forcing your religion on someone else.

At present though there is a real concern over the role some of the more vocal American religions are wanting to play in OUR elections.

[Atticus]

Well I can think of worse things than gun control too but that doesn't mean it's not a debate worth having.

Stories like this send a chill up my spine. When I was a youngster, I recall being asked by my second grade teacher every Monday morning for a show of hands as to who attended church the previous day. Sure, if I wanted to look at a situation like this in a vacuum as many of you are doing, then I would say there's absolutely nothing wrong with the teacher asking her students this question. She's just exercising her "freedom of speech" or something. Or perhaps she's just taking a survey for an academic paper she's writing, and that absent any evidence that she's treating the church attendees differently from the non-attendees, then I really ought to just get over it. You really think the kids who didn't raise their hand every Monday morning for Ms. Charlene didn't feel belittled?

I sense that many of you have very little understanding of the typical small town atmosphere. The pressure to conform in these communities is tremendous. More often than not, the notion of what it means to be a Christian in these towns is also entwined with small mindedness and a certain level of bigotry toward outsiders--if they're not like you, they're probably bad.

I was indoctrinated into all of this at a very early age. After one Saturday afternoon of feeling especially pressured by a little old lady in our church, I became "saved" and then later was baptized into Christianity. I was 12 when this happened. Teachers in my school regularly talked about church. The Ten Commandments hung on our classroom walls years after the Supreme Court had declared such displays unconstitutional. In college, I enrolled in the school's honors program but dropped out after the first semester because they were making us study the writings of ancient thinkers and writers (Plato, Aeschylus, Homer, etc.) that included references to multiple gods and that conflicted with my narrow, pristine view of the world. Years later, when I finally opened my eyes to the realization that Christianity is but one belief system in the whole gamut of ideas about the universe, I feel cheated. I feel deprived of the knowledge and experiences that was at my fingertips from age 12 to 22 that I otherwise recoiled from as a teen and young adult. I had no real thirst for knowledge because I already had all the answers given to me ... at age 12!

That's probably why I feel so uncomfortable with rallies such as these. Of course they're tremendously successful--you're targeting the young and impressionable in somewhat of a captive environment. Would it hold up in court? Who cares. Is it a good thing for the kids? Not in my view.Please know, BB, that I get EXACTLY what you're saying. I taught in Kentucky and ultimately had to leave because *I* didn't fit in. But small-minded small town isn't only about religion (it's about all things "outside"), and it would go on whether the law allowed the use of public facilities for religion or not. Your example of the teacher asking about church isn't at all the same thing--that's during school, in a class, where anyone's religion should be (MUST be) irrelevant.

I'd also point out that just because YOU "saw the light" that Christianity was but one viewpoint, that doesn't mean others will follow your lead--even if you prevent them from using public facilities for their views. In fact, you'd probably only convince them that they were persecuted by secularists. In short, I wonder if your present views aren't blinding you to the reasons behind the law in just the same way that people who think there should be prayer in schools are blinded by their own strongly-held views. Think maybe?

[Mr. Awesome]

When the cheerleading coach says "I have to make plans for our routine, so who's gonna be at the church-rally this Sunday?", it's gotta suck really bad for the one girl who raises her hand.

Is it legal? Probably, I don't really know.
Does suck for that girl? Oh yeah.

[lawman]

I'd also point out that just because YOU "saw the light" that Christianity was but one viewpoint, that doesn't mean others will follow your lead--even if you prevent them from using public facilities for their views. In fact, you'd probably only convince them that they were persecuted by secularists...
You're probably right that they would, but that doesn't indicate any blindness on Bog's part. When we're talking about people who think they have a right to expect everyone to be like them, because doing otherwise is Wrong, and thus any attempt to level the playing field for people not like them amounts to "persecution" because they're being denied their "natural," un-self-critical position of dominance... well, why on earth should any of us sympathize with such narcissistic attitudes?

[Ethos]

That's probably why I feel so uncomfortable with rallies such as these. Of course they're tremendously successful--you're targeting the young and impressionable in somewhat of a captive environment. Would it hold up in court? Who cares. Is it a good thing for the kids? Not in my view.

I completely agree, although I would point out that whether the issue holds up in court is the deciding factor on its legality. I don't like the situation any more than you do, and please understand I am fully aware of the small-town ethos. Simply because I cannot frame a legal objection to this type of event does not in any way mean I don't harbor ethical objections.

Ethos

[Atticus]

You're probably right that they would, but that doesn't indicate any blindness on Bog's part. Sorry, but the argument at the top of the thread was that this particular group/view should be uniquely disqualified from renting a school building for its meetings because its views are overwhelmingly popular in the local area. I don't think the thread starter quite sees that.

[lord tammerlain]

Sorry, but the argument at the top of the thread was that this particular group/view should be uniquely disqualified from renting a school building for its meetings because its views are overwhelmingly popular in the local area. I don't think the thread starter quite sees that.

They are not just renting a school building for a meeting though.

They are getting the use of the school band, the school cheerleading squad, it is almost a public school endorsement of religion

[Atticus]

They are getting the use of the school band, the school cheerleading squad, it is almost a public school endorsement of religionSo long as the participation of those squads is entirely voluntary, that's not true. Also, note the title of the thread. The primary objection was use of the building.

[The Big Bog]

Well, unfortunately the link is now dead so we can’t verify this, but I can’t recall anywhere the article mentioning for certain that this was a student-initiated pep rally. In fact, the little piece that I excerpted above seems to indicate that this was more of a church-sponsored event.

I’m not a Constitutional lawyer, so I’m a little fuzzy on the federal equal access law as pertaining to religious events held on public school grounds, but it was my understanding that such events had to be student-initiated and couldn’t involve a lot of outside influence. If those restrictions weren’t in place then any taxpaying Joe Schmo off the street could decide to use public school grounds for anything he wanted. If independent churches can go in and use school facilities to hold a big pep rally for Jesus, that what’s to keep me from holding a Star Trek convention at my local high school gymnasium? Or my next family reunion? Or a KKK rally?

And the point of my subsequent posts in this thread, btw, was simply to provide a little context to these situations. Even if this was a student-initiated pep rally and these folks managed to check off every item on their nice neat CYA list provided to them by the local Baptist attorney, you have to look at the totality of the circumstances. A couple of years ago this same school almost got into trouble with the ACLU after an atheist student complained about prayer at graduation. He was subsequently booed at graduation and received threatening letters. Now they hold these huge pep rallies for Jesus in the same gymnasium where this atheist student was harassed. Since no one else wants to ever be harassed like that, they support it. It’s called group-think.

So we see that the intent as far as using the school building isn’t so much to worship as it is to flip a big giant bird to any nonbelievers that are left in this town. Mighty pious of them.

[lawman]

So long as the participation of those squads is entirely voluntary, that's not true. Also, note the title of the thread. The primary objection was use of the building.
That's true, and so long as it was completely voluntary it seems legal. (Although the circumstances certainly give rise to skepticism -- it seems more like an official pep rally, the kind that team members and students are typically obliged to attend, except held on Sunday with a large helping of God thrown in.)

However, what I was responding to was your remark to Bog that "...just because YOU 'saw the light' that Christianity was but one viewpoint, that doesn't mean others will follow your lead--even if you prevent them from using public facilities for their views." On this I disagree, and it's hardly fair to accuse Bog of ideological blindness here -- the blind ones are those who somehow fail to realize that theirs is only one view among many, and sometimes they need to be reminded of it by force of law.

[Atticus]

If independent churches can go in and use school facilities to hold a big pep rally for Jesus, that what’s to keep me from holding a Star Trek convention at my local high school gymnasium? Or my next family reunion? Nothing. Or a KKK rally?If they advocate violence or something illegal, that's a problem.

[The Big Bog]

Oh and for the record ... I'm not anti-religion. The spiritual muscle of my brain gets flexed daily.

My religion doesn't compel me to rent out an entire school gymnasium for a day and flex that muscle in full view of everyone else. What's going on at this school isn't religion, it's politics.

[The Big Bog]

Nothing.

So these rallies don't have to be student-initiated?

So I--a nonstudent--could walk over to Ballard High School and demand that they let me use their facilities to host my next family reunion? We can use their volleyball nets, track, gymnasium and everything?

If that's correct, then I've got some major event planning to do.

[The Big Bog]

Oops! Double post

[Atticus]

So these rallies don't have to be student-initiated?

So I--a nonstudent--could walk over to Ballard High School and demand that they let me use their facilities to host my next family reunion? We can use their volleyball nets, track, gymnasium and everything?

If that's correct, then I've got some major event planning to do.They'd probably make you pay, but yes, if they rent to anyone, they have to rent to you.

[Dutch]

So these rallies don't have to be student-initiated?

So I--a nonstudent--could walk over to Ballard High School and demand that they let me use their facilities to host my next family reunion? We can use their volleyball nets, track, gymnasium and everything?

If that's correct, then I've got some major event planning to do.

At a small rural school I taught at some years ago, I saw a family (a very big one) do just that. What you may not understand is, in some of these very rural locations, the local school serves as the centerpoint for the entire community. Those school buildings represent a focal point of and, sometimes, a great deal of investment and energy. Why not let the community use them the way they want as long as they don't violate any federal laws. Keeping these small communities viable is difficult enough without federal interference in, essentially, innocent proceedings.

[Ethos]

At the risk of committing a generalization, I believe this is an example where the opposition is performing the same function as the fundamentalists often do when considering the legality of a situation.

It is important to separate our personal feelings and reservations on this issue from the factual reality being presented. Holding a heavily religious activity on school grounds is only a constitutional challenge if the event occurs during school hours, if student participation is mandatory, or if similar events involving alternative faiths or secular groups are refused access to the same facilities.

This doesn't mean children won't be influenced or intimidated. It also doesn't prevent prejudices in the implementation of non-Christian gatherings. These are unfortunate results inherent to small, homogenous communities where the existence of differing perspectives may be extremely limited.

However there cannot be a successful legal challenge unless the criteria I listed in the second paragraph are violated, or unless it can be shown that organizers and school officials had the intent of doing so.

So again, we must separate the emotional basis from legal foundations.

Ethos

[Atticus]

At a small rural school I taught at some years ago, I saw a family (a very big one) do just that. What you may not understand is, in some of these very rural locations, the local school serves as the centerpoint for the entire community. Those school buildings represent a focal point of and, sometimes, a great deal of investment and energy. Why not let the community use them the way they want as long as they don't violate any federal laws. Keeping these small communities viable is difficult enough without federal interference in, essentially, innocent proceedings.All over the country, small start-up churches rent school buildings for their Sunday services until such time as they've banked enough money to get a building of their own.

[The Big Bog]

At the risk of committing a generalization, I believe this is an example where the opposition is performing the same function as the fundamentalists often do when considering the legality of a situation.

It is important to separate our personal feelings and reservations on this issue from the factual reality being presented. Holding a heavily religious activity on school grounds is only a constitutional challenge if the event occurs during school hours, if student participation is mandatory, or if similar events involving alternative faiths or secular groups are refused access to the same facilities.

This doesn't mean children won't be influenced or intimidated. It also doesn't prevent prejudices in the implementation of non-Christian gatherings. These are unfortunate results inherent to small, homogenous communities where the existence of differing perspectives may be extremely limited.

However there cannot be a successful legal challenge unless the criteria I listed in the second paragraph are violated, or unless it can be shown that organizers and school officials had the intent of doing so.

So again, we must separate the emotional basis from legal foundations.

Ethos

Oh dear. Letting those emotions run away again. That’s what happens when you try to make a discussion interesting.

So how about the girls’ basketball coach reasserting his commitment to be a good Christian role model for his students? What does that bode for the Hindu student? How about the prominent use of the school mascot throughout the festivities (the anchor and the designation of this unabashedly religious event as “Laker Day”)? Not a problem? Or the cheerleaders wearing their Laker garb while doing a Jesus cheer? And what about the background that I cited related to this particular school? To read a little more about the aforementioned graduation prayer debacle, click here:

http://www.decaturdaily.com/decaturdaily/opinion/other/060528a.shtml

Hmm. This particular school system doesn’t seem to have a very good track record as far as knowing where to draw that church/state line, do they? And the churches in the community just can’t seem to keep their hands off the schools for some reason. Wonder why? Why would they want to hold such an event at a school when there’s plenty of big churches around in the area?

Sure, we may very well not have enough evidence based on half a news article to come down on the school system for allowing this annual event--yet. But this whole situation just doesn’t pass my smell test. I would certainly hate being a non-Christian student in this school system.

Viewing it all in context, I see the use of the school gymnasium here as nothing more than a shameless attempt by a large segment of the Christian community in this town to thumb its nose at federal judges and other outside influences. Religious leaders in the community are intentionally attempting to bend the church-state line in order to stir the pot and hopefully recruit a new generation of believers in the process, forever pitting them against all those godless liberals and atheists out there. The article doesn't say this, but none of us here were born yesterday either.

That’s how I see it. It may not comport onto a nice, unadorned checklist but it is nonetheless reality as I see it.

[Dutch]

All over the country, small start-up churches rent school buildings for their Sunday services until such time as they've banked enough money to get a building of their own.

Ha, I've seen some of these "start-up" churches in some of the most unlikely places imagineable. You mentioned kentucky. I thought you were from up north?

[Ethos]

That’s how I see it. It may not comport onto a nice, unadorned checklist but it is nonetheless reality as I see it.

That's fine, and yet again I don't disagree. The event still isn't unconstitutional unless you can definitively show certain violations are taking place.

I have nothing against an "interesting discussion", emotional or otherwise. I do have a problem portraying a legitimate event as unconstitutional based on emotion alone.

Ethos

[The Big Bog]

That's fine, and yet again I don't disagree. The event still isn't unconstitutional unless you can definitively show certain violations are taking place.

I have nothing against an "interesting discussion", emotional or otherwise. I do have a problem portraying a legitimate event as unconstitutional based on emotion alone.

Ethos

You're asking for courtroom level evidence on an informal internet discussion forum. If this case were that clear-cut, this thread wouldn't even go beyond one page.

I'm simply purporting that I think that egregious displays such as these push the line, if not cross it entirely. There's a reason why religious leaders revel in holding events like these on public school grounds, and it has more to do with politics than it does religion. Sure, I'm not here presenting the sworn testimony of some Hindu kid that says he was forced to participate in any of these events, but c'mon ... this is an internet discussion forum. You can let your hair down. Aren't most of us here smart enough to know that at least some level of peer pressure goes on in situations like these? Hell, I know it. I experienced it!

And I can't help but wonder how comfortable you would be sending your kids to this school given the background that's been provided throughout this thread (and while keeping in mind that this is the county's sole high school). :(

[heel31ok]

Oh dear. Letting those emotions run away again. That’s what happens when you try to make a discussion interesting.

So how about the girls’ basketball coach reasserting his commitment to be a good Christian role model for his students? What does that bode for the Hindu student? How about the prominent use of the school mascot throughout the festivities (the anchor and the designation of this unabashedly religious event as “Laker Day”)? Not a problem? Or the cheerleaders wearing their Laker garb while doing a Jesus cheer? And what about the background that I cited related to this particular school? To read a little more about the aforementioned graduation prayer debacle, click here:

http://www.decaturdaily.com/decaturdaily/opinion/other/060528a.shtml

Hmm. This particular school system doesn’t seem to have a very good track record as far as knowing where to draw that church/state line, do they? And the churches in the community just can’t seem to keep their hands off the schools for some reason. Wonder why? Why would they want to hold such an event at a school when there’s plenty of big churches around in the area?

Sure, we may very well not have enough evidence based on half a news article to come down on the school system for allowing this annual event--yet. But this whole situation just doesn’t pass my smell test. I would certainly hate being a non-Christian student in this school system.

Viewing it all in context, I see the use of the school gymnasium here as nothing more than a shameless attempt by a large segment of the Christian community in this town to thumb its nose at federal judges and other outside influences. Religious leaders in the community are intentionally attempting to bend the church-state line in order to stir the pot and hopefully recruit a new generation of believers in the process, forever pitting them against all those godless liberals and atheists out there. The article doesn't say this, but none of us here were born yesterday either.

That’s how I see it. It may not comport onto a nice, unadorned checklist but it is nonetheless reality as I see it.

so what's the problem? I did not read where the Hindu student raised an objection.Why don't you and Shannon Faulkner go over there and do something about it.