"Le Tour"

[Missouri Mule]

Well, it is finally upon us. The Tour de France is coming shortly after several preliminary events.

This is the year they are supposed to clean out the sport of the dopers and other cheaters. They even banished Tom Boonen because cocaine showed up in his system although it is not a banned EP drug. The entire Astana team was booted including last year's winner Alberto Contador.

http://takebackthetour.com/

I think this is the year that Cadel Evans will win it. He is from Australia and any Aussies can weigh in here. Bowerbird, anytime you want to opine will be fine. Robbie McEwen will be back to win his share of the sprints.

This is my favorite sport. Thoughts?

[towski]

I always enjoy the tour. Any thoughts, Mulie, on the revamped american teams?

[rjamortega]

If the UCI actually succeeds in cleaning up the Tour, then this will be the year the entire field bonks by end of the second week.

Can the natural human body endure this punishment?!?!






:D

[Missouri Mule]

I always enjoy the tour. Any thoughts, Mulie, on the revamped american teams?

Team Garmin-Chipotle and Team High Road are the American based teams but there are only four Americans in this year's race. I doubt any of them have a real chance. Phil Ligett and Paul Sherwood were pretty generous in their opinions of Team Garmin-Chipotle (formerly Slipstream) if I recall correctly. Most of the former Discovery team members went over to Astana which has been cleaning up in the early races but they are out for a year. Even Bruyneel went over there as their team manager. To be honest, I don't know the teams that well to offer up an informed opinion. We can, by process of elimination determine who won't win the Tour. None of the sprinters will and only the climbers have any real chance.

I just want a good clean race, with no serious injuries, and that we leave this drug culture behind for good. I support lifetime banning for a positive test for EP drugs.

These are the actual teams.

2008 Teams announced:
March 20th update:
The twenty teams to participate in the 2008 Tour de France:

Bouygues Telecom
Cofidis
Credit Agricole
Française des Jeux
Agritubel (Continental Pro)
Caisse d'Epargne
Euskaltel-Euskadi
Saunier Duval
Gerolsteiner
Milram
Quick Step
Silence-Lotto
Lampre
Liquigas
Team High Road
Slipstream (Continental Pro)
Team CSC
Rabobank
Barloworld (Continental Pro)

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/24/sports/othersports/24tour.html

I don't have at my hands the actual rider list but I would seriously doubt that any American riders have a realistic chance at winning the tour this year. I still believe Evans is the odds on favorite this year. He could have (and possibly should have) won the tour last year since Contador was mentioned as indirectly linked to the doping scandal but was allowed to race anyway. If you happen to have a list of the riders please give me a link and I will discuss the true contenders.

[rjamortega]

BARLOWORLD ... leading brands.





sorry...I used to work for them. I couldn't help repeating that slogan of theirs.:o

[Dangerrmouse]

I suspect that "bonk" means something different over here, unless RJ is predicting that all the cyclists will have had sexual congress with each other in the first fortnight...;)

[lord tammerlain]

If the UCI actually succeeds in cleaning up the Tour, then this will be the year the entire field bonks by end of the second week.

Can the natural human body endure this punishment?!?!






:DYes but it will be at a much slower pace

[rjamortega]

I suspect that "bonk" means something different over here, unless RJ is predicting that all the cyclists will have had sexual congress with each other in the first fortnight...;)

It's a term I first learned when I was a mountain bike racer. Maybe it was an American cycling term. Given what you and bowerbird have recently had to say about the word, your pros must get a laugh when they talk cycling with our racers and journalists.

Tell me, does the 'F'-word have a different meaning as well? Or is that one universal?

[Antipathy]

I suspect that "bonk" means something different over here, unless RJ is predicting that all the cyclists will have had sexual congress with each other in the first fortnight...Bonking is the cycling equivalent of what runners call hitting the wall. A few years ago while out cycling with a large group of friends and family, I was suffering with a very painful knee cartilage injury when one of my sister's friends, a woman from Holland, presumably mistook the look on my face for fatigue and asked me if I was bonking. I can only describe the look on her face as bewilderment when I replied: "are you asking?" :lol:

[pedex]

bonking is when your glycogen stores get depleted to the point where your blood sugar level drops to the point where your brain begins to quit working properly---it is often thrown around quite liberally when it is actually a pretty rare occurrence and one of those things if you've experienced it you will not likely do it again

people on the various bicycling forums tend to overuse it to the point of absurdity, things like I rode 10 miles and bonked, that kind of ridiculous statement

[Dangerrmouse]

Tell me, does the 'F'-word have a different meaning as well? Or is that one universal?

"Bonk" is the acceptable jokey version, I think the "F"'s a universal. Oddly, the relatively puritanical America had less problem with "shag", which over here is nearer to "F" than bonk in polite company. The Austin Powers movie ads and posters were censored in many places.:rolleyes:

[rjamortega]

bonking is when your glycogen stores get depleted to the point where your blood sugar level drops to the point where your brain begins to quit working properly---it is often thrown around quite liberally when it is actually a pretty rare occurrence and one of those things if you've experienced it you will not likely do it again

people on the various bicycling forums tend to overuse it to the point of absurdity, things like I rode 10 miles and bonked, that kind of ridiculous statement

What it is, is a relative term. For the world-class, pro racers and elite amateur competitiors it will of course be a more extreme experience as you describe. But so too, the common sportsman will find that point (though less severe) when his energy levels are tapped and his muscle strength and endurance fades.

They may be two different experiences, but they both reduce the participant's level of performance. But I suppose this is why they call them "elites". They don't like to share anything they think belongs solely to themselves with mere commoners, or "Freds" if you will.

[Dangerrmouse]

Which reminds me re old Phil...
" ... Paris, July 5 (Fat Cyclist News Service) - Outdoor Life Network today severed its contract with Phil Liggett, a perennial favorite cycling announcer both in England and in the United States. A spokesperson for Outdoor Life Network said, "We regret having to let Phil go, but he knew the terms of our agreement when he signed on. Namely, he is required to allude to Lance Armstrong three times per minute, with at least one of those mentions being by name. Most importantly, at no point in time shall forty seconds ever elapse without a mention of Lance Armstrong." ... "




http://www.bikeforums.net/archive/index.php/t-119487.html

[rjamortega]

Jeesh, dm...you scared the crap out of me there for a moment. Liggett and Sherwin are what keep me watching so many riders I hardly know a thing about.

Bob is good too, but only because his odd hand gestures mesmerize me.

[pedex]

What it is, is a relative term. For the world-class, pro racers and elite amateur competitiors it will of course be a more extreme experience as you describe. But so too, the common sportsman will find that point (though less severe) when his energy levels are tapped and his muscle strength and endurance fades.

They may be two different experiences, but they both reduce the participant's level of performance. But I suppose this is why they call them "elites". They don't like to share anything they think belongs solely to themselves with mere commoners, or "Freds" if you will.

actually the poorer your aerobic conditioning the less chance you have of actually bonking, it takes some effort to do it and it means a long period of fairly high intensity effort most novices simply cant even do or won't try to begin with

just basic human physiology, most folks wake up in the AM with anywhere from 1000-1500 cals of glycogen stored and during aerobic exercise at say 65-70% MHR your gonna use up around 4-600 cals an hour depending on how big you are, that gives you at least 2 hours but it neglects the calories you also get from fat which kick in pretty seriously after awhile which give you another 300 cals/hr or so which pushes the bonk zone out to 4-6 hours plus

Ive been riding for a living for years and also recreationally and you just don't see too many rec riders or novices crank out that kind of effort long enough to get anywhere even close. It takes some miles and effort, Ive gone more than 100 miles without bonking before. Heck at 12-14 mph a person my size can literally ride all day with just water and never even get close to bonking, you get enough calories from fat to keep right on riding. Crank up the speed though and @ 22-23 mph Im good for about 3 hrs, running flat out I might get 2hrs and riding like that isn't easy for anybody.

[pedex]

Jeesh, dm...you scared the crap out of me there for a moment. Liggett and Sherwin are what keep me watching so many riders I hardly know a thing about.

Bob is good too, but only because his odd hand gestures mesmerize me.

sometimes I wish they'd shutup for a minute or two and let us catch some of the crosstalk in the peloton or maybe they could tune in to one of the team radios and listen in

I had to watch the italian version of stage 2 of this years giro di italia and they did that and didn't do nearly as much talking, it was pretty cool. Kinda neat to be sitting there with the view of the camera bike listening to the guys in the peloton chat while rolling along.

[rjamortega]

actually the poorer your aerobic conditioning the less chance you have of actually bonking, it takes some effort to do it and it means a long period of fairly high intensity effort most novices simply cant even do or won't try to begin with

just basic human physiology, most folks wake up in the AM with anywhere from 1000-1500 cals of glycogen stored and during aerobic exercise at say 65-70% MHR your gonna use up around 4-600 cals an hour depending on how big you are, that gives you at least 2 hours but it neglects the calories you also get from fat which kick in pretty seriously after awhile which give you another 300 cals/hr or so which pushes the bonk zone out to 4-6 hours plus

Ive been riding for a living for years and also recreationally and you just don't see too many rec riders or novices crank out that kind of effort long enough to get anywhere even close. It takes some miles and effort, Ive gone more than 100 miles without bonking before. Heck at 12-14 mph a person my size can literally ride all day with just water and never even get close to bonking, you get enough calories from fat to keep right on riding. Crank up the speed though and @ 22-23 mph Im good for about 3 hrs, running flat out I might get 2hrs and riding like that isn't easy for anybody.

As I said...two different things, same terminology. No great crime unless one takes great pride with great ego, as do many if not most elite athletes. Then... watch out!

[rjamortega]

sometimes I wish they'd shutup for a minute or two and let us catch some of the crosstalk in the peloton or maybe they could tune in to one of the team radios and listen in

I had to watch the italian version of stage 2 of this years giro di italia and they did that and didn't do nearly as much talking, it was pretty cool. Kinda neat to be sitting there with the view of the camera bike listening to the guys in the peloton chat while rolling along.

I have to admit what you saw would be great for the purist. But I am just an ex-dirt guy. I love the feeling of careening off of berms, getting some air, drop-offs, loose conditions and controlled slides. I don't get all turned on with the intimate roadie experience even if I do appreciate what they do.

But Liggett/Sherwin are like listening to the Dodger's Vin Scully or the late Laker announcer Chick Hearn. They make the experience great for me.

[Missouri Mule]

Jeesh, dm...you scared the crap out of me there for a moment. Liggett and Sherwin are what keep me watching so many riders I hardly know a thing about.

Bob is good too, but only because his odd hand gestures mesmerize me.

Actually I like them all. Liggett is sometimes too quick to make a call and gets his riders confused but he is easy to listen to. Sherwin provides the expertise of a season rider himself and Roll is just funny to listen to. I would miss any of them should they leave.

I do hope this year will mark the permanent end of the drug culture which has sullied the name of cycling for far too long. Last year's debacle and the one before that was almost too much to bear.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. One strike and you're out -- permanently.

And all the professional sports should do likewise. Bobby Bonds the so-called home run king is going to the slammer for his lies and steriod use. It is just ridiculous this has gone on this long without a zero tolerance policy in effect. There is no question but that EP doping gives an athlete an unfair advantage.

[pedex]

Actually I like them all. Liggett is sometimes too quick to make a call and gets his riders confused but he is easy to listen to. Sherwin provides the expertise of a season rider himself and Roll is just funny to listen to. I would miss any of them should they leave.

I do hope this year will mark the permanent end of the drug culture which has sullied the name of cycling for far too long. Last year's debacle and the one before that was almost too much to bear.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. One strike and you're out -- permanently.

And all the professional sports should do likewise. Bobby Bonds the so-called home run king is going to the slammer for his lies and steriod use. It is just ridiculous this has gone on this long without a zero tolerance policy in effect. There is no question but that EP doping gives an athlete an unfair advantage.

drugs have been part of the TDF since its inception

If you really want to get rid of the drug problem then the UCI, USADA, and WADA and team ownership problems need fixed as well---you can't put it all on the riders and not expect continued problems. There are and have been some pretty unscrupulous teams treating riders like crap for decades along with several generations of corrupt management that jumps from team to team. Then there's how the whole shooting match is run. The idea that the anti-doping and enforcement programs are run cleanly and professionally is a joke and this is well known. It isn't just the riders that need booted out but the team managers and owners too.

[Missouri Mule]

drugs have been part of the TDF since its inception

If you really want to get rid of the drug problem then the UCI, USADA, and WADA and team ownership problems need fixed as well---you can't put it all on the riders and not expect continued problems. There are and have been some pretty unscrupulous teams treating riders like crap for decades along with several generations of corrupt management that jumps from team to team. Then there's how the whole shooting match is run. The idea that the anti-doping and enforcement programs are run cleanly and professionally is a joke and this is well known. It isn't just the riders that need booted out but the team managers and owners too.

I have no problem with that. I suspect that is why Team Astana was disinvited to participate.

[Missouri Mule]

This looks like some good information that is up to date. I see also that George Hincapie is the captain of Team Columbia. He can't win but I found that interesting. They must have renamed that from "Team High Road." I have trouble keeping up with all of these changes.


http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2008/jun08/jun27news2

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=features/2008/highroad_columbia08

I just checked Versus and the list of riders is not yet available so it is still evolving.

http://www.versus.com/tdf/

[Missouri Mule]

There are two "American" teams among the group;
"Columbia" and "Garmin Chipotle - H30". There are only four American riders this year.

FYI: Floyd Landis finally and permanently was stripped of the 2006 title. It's over, and let us hope all of the doping scandals.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2008/tour08/?id=startlist

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2008/jul08/jul01news

[Turenne]

So who are the faves this year? Evans, Sastre...?

[Missouri Mule]

So who are the faves this year? Evans, Sastre...?

Barring an accident I think this year will be Evans. He came in second last year to Contador (who is now with the barred Astana team) and Leipheimer was third (also with Astana). I don't really see anyone out there who will be able to beat him.

Alejandro Valverde, Andy Schleck and Carlos Sastre will be his strongest competitors.

As always, CSC will have a very strong team.

Yaroslav Popovych is on Evan's squad and might be seen as a long shot, however. I expect Evans to win it. This is his team. McEwen should win the green jersey making it an all Aussie year.

Silence-Lotto

Mario Aerts (Bel)
Christophe Brandt (Bel)
Dario Cioni (Ita)
Cadel Evans (Aus)
Leif Hoste (Bel)
Robbie McEwen (Aus)
Yaroslav Popovych (Ukr)
Wim Vansevenant (Bel)
Johan Van Summeren (Bel)

[Dangerrmouse]

Theyr'e off! Brest to Plumelec... Live on Eurosport as I type.

[Missouri Mule]

Looks like we'll know by Thursday who is the likely winner. Looking more and more like Cadel Evans. Valverde just keeps coming up short and Evans looks like he is completely in charge. If he climbs as well as I think he will he should build up an insurmountable lead. There are perhaps no more than six or so true contenders. He tops the list.

[pedex]

Looks like we'll know by Thursday who is the likely winner. Looking more and more like Cadel Evans. Valverde just keeps coming up short and Evans looks like he is completely in charge. If he climbs as well as I think he will he should build up an insurmountable lead. There are perhaps no more than six or so true contenders. He tops the list.

huh?

dude there's 17 more stages to run, lots of climbing thru some serious mountains, one of which is the highest peak in Europe period

your prediction is so premature and shows huge misunderstanding of bike racing period

there's tons of young and new talent in this race and the lack of drugs is going to create major inconsistencies in performances, heck schumacher showed that

[pedex]

plus the time bonuses are gone but the bunch finish rule is still in effect

[Turenne]

Nobody knows anything until the mountains are at least attempted.

Why wasn't Contador allowed to race? Him agianst Evans would have been fascinating.

[pedex]

Nobody knows anything until the mountains are at least attempted.

Why wasn't Contador allowed to race? Him agianst Evans would have been fascinating.

cause he signed with Astana and the ASO refused to invite Astana until at least next year

there's a bit of a war going on right now tween the ASO, the pro tour and UCI

[Missouri Mule]

huh?

dude there's 17 more stages to run, lots of climbing thru some serious mountains, one of which is the highest peak in Europe period

your prediction is so premature and shows huge misunderstanding of bike racing period

there's tons of young and new talent in this race and the lack of drugs is going to create major inconsistencies in performances, heck schumacher showed that

I understand bike racing just fine, thank you very much. If Cadel Evans is not injured and does as I expect he will do in the mountains he will win the GC. The green jersey is too early to call.

[Missouri Mule]

Nobody knows anything until the mountains are at least attempted.

Why wasn't Contador allowed to race? Him agianst Evans would have been fascinating.

Evans is quite strong in the mountains as is Valverde but Valverde is falling flat on his time trialing. Evans is very strong there as well. Barring injury, it would appear that he has to be the prohibitive favorite.

Contador was involved as a possible doping suspect last year. Astana had a very checkered history and was not invited this year. This also left two of the strongest competitors out of the race as well with Leipheimer and Kloden not in the race.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23978612-5013449,00.html

Bruyneel went from the Discovery Team to Astana to resurrect the team after the fiasco of last year when the whole team left the race. But the Tour organizers wanted to send a clear message. Hopefully this year's race is completely clean. Something obviously had to be done about doping as the Landis and Vinokourev scandals about brought the Tours to its knees. In fact the German television station stopped broadcasting last year's race

Rasmussen is working off a two year suspension for failing to abide by the doping testing prior to the Tour. He is probably finished as he won't be eligible again until the 2010 race.

I wonder about Ivan Basso coming back. He won't be eligible to return until late this year. He was last year's favorite until he was kicked out of the Tour as was Ulrich who promptly retired.

http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/23808093/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Basso

http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/cycling/news/story?id=2779969

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2006/jun/28/tourdefrance2006.tourdefrance

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Rasmussen

[Turenne]

I understand the need to send a message but if Levi, Kloden and Contador haven't been found guilty of doping then they should be allowed race. They are essentially punishing innocent people and the Tour is suffering considering Evans seems to be the one truly top class cyclists out there. The likes of Menchov, Sastre, Perreiro, Valverde etc are too painfully inconsistent to really challenge him.

Anyway on Eurosport Sean Kelly accurately predicted Rocci's victory today and generally seems to know what he is talking about. The British dude who commentates with him on the other hand is a moron, as was clear when he wrongly thought Chavanel had crashed and then couldn't even recognise Valverde coming off the front.

Anywy Kirchen takes the yellow after Schumacher crashed.The likes of Cunago and Moreau are already suffering.

1. KIRCHEN Kim 41 TEAM COLUMBIA 24h 30' 41"
2. EVANS Cadel 1 SILENCE - LOTTO 24h 30' 47" + 00' 06"
3. SCHUMACHER Stefan 111 GEROLSTEINER 24h 30' 57" + 00' 16"
4. VANDEVELDE Christian 191 GARMIN CHIPOTLE 24h 31' 25" + 00' 44"
5. MILLAR David 198 GARMIN CHIPOTLE 24h 31' 28" + 00' 47"
6. LÖVKVIST Thomas 48 TEAM COLUMBIA 24h 31' 35" + 00' 54"
7. MENCHOV Denis 131 RABOBANK 24h 31' 44" + 01' 03"
8. VALVERDE Alejandro 31 CAISSE D’EPARGNE 24h 31' 53" + 01' 12"
9. DEVOLDER Stijn 91 QUICK STEP 24h 32' 02" + 01' 21"
10. PEREIRO SIO Oscar 37 CAISSE D’EPARGNE 24h 32' 02" + 01' 21"
11. SANCHEZ Samuel 27 EUSKALTEL - EUSKADI 24h 32' 08" + 01' 27"
12. SASTRE Carlos 11 TEAM CSC SAXO BANK 24h 32' 15" + 01' 34"
13. MONFORT Maxime 189 COFIDIS CREDIT PAR TELEPHONE 24h 32' 21" + 01' 40"
14. CUNEGO Damiano 71 LAMPRE 24h 32' 23" + 01' 42"
15. HINCAPIE George 47 TEAM COLUMBIA 24h 32' 26" + 01' 45"
16. ASTARLOZA Mikel 22 EUSKALTEL - EUSKADI 24h 32' 30" + 01' 49"
17. SCHLECK Frank 17 TEAM CSC SAXO BANK 24h 32' 37" + 01' 56"
18. SCHLECK Andy 16 TEAM CSC SAXO BANK 24h 32' 39" + 01' 58"
19. KOHL Bernhard 115 GEROLSTEINER 24h 32' 44" + 02' 03"
20. KNEES Christian 153 TEAM MILRAM 24h 32' 45" + 02' 04"

Link. (http://www.letour.fr/2008/TDF/LIVE/fr/600/classement/index.html)

[Missouri Mule]

I understand the need to send a message but if Levi, Kloden and Contador haven't been found guilty of doping then they should be allowed race. They are essentially punishing innocent people and the Tour is suffering considering Evans seems to be the one truly top class cyclists out there. The likes of Menchov, Sastre, Perreiro, Valverde etc are too painfully inconsistent to really challenge him.

Anyway on Eurosport Sean Kelly accurately predicted Rocci's victory today and generally seems to know what he is talking about. The British dude who commentates with him on the other hand is a moron, as was clear when he wrongly thought Chavanel had crashed and then couldn't even recognise Valverde coming off the front.

Anywy Kirchen takes the yellow after Schumacher crashed.The likes of Cunago and Moreau are already suffering.

Link. (http://www.letour.fr/2008/TDF/LIVE/fr/600/classement/index.html)

Valverde hung in there and Kirchen is looking very interesting. But I still believe that Evans is going to prevail. If you looked at tomorrow's stage, this is REALLY going to separate the contenders from the pretenders. Right out of the gate, they have to climb and there is a monster grade in the middle. Even today's stage dropped riders like so many flies. Take a gander at this monster.

http://tour-de-france.velonews.com/stage/detail/77826

And it will only get worse. Like stage 9.

http://tour-de-france.velonews.com/stage/detail/77828

Or this.

http://tour-de-france.velonews.com/stage/detail/77829

And after about a quarter of the field out, they finally get the coup de grâce.

http://tour-de-france.velonews.com/stage/detail/77838

[Turenne]

Yup its going to be interesting over the next few days. There is nothing quite like the monster mountain stages of the Tour of France for entertainment and drama. ;)

[Missouri Mule]

Yup its going to be interesting over the next few days. There is nothing quite like the monster mountain stages of the Tour of France for entertainment and drama. ;)

I've just looked at the complete list of remaining riders and it appears to be coming down to a very select group. Obviously Evans, Valverde, Menchov, The Schleck brothers, Cunego, Sastre and a few others. Moreau no longer appears to be a serious contender. He was dropped easily today. I'd say that anyone past #33 has to be ruled out completely. I'd welcome any opposing opinions.

http://www.versus.com/tdf/standings/standings.php?ss=standings&t=ITG&e=9999

[Turenne]

Moreau has dropped out of his last Tour, and clearly Cunago isn't up to it. Beyond the listed above, I like Perriero, even if he is riding for Valverde, who knows? He pulled off a shock a couple of years back and has a strong team, although he won't get into an easy breakaway like before. The last two stage winners as well might get top ten finishes at least, Ricco and Sanchez.

[Turenne]

As well, Evans team isn't particurly strong, which is why I like someone from the CSC or Caisse d'epargne teams like Perriero or Sastre.

After today...

1. KIRCHEN Kim 41 TEAM COLUMBIA 28h 23' 40"
2. EVANS Cadel 1 SILENCE - LOTTO 28h 23' 46" + 00' 06"
3. SCHUMACHER Stefan 111 GEROLSTEINER 28h 23' 56" + 00' 16"
4. VANDEVELDE Christian 191 GARMIN CHIPOTLE 28h 24' 24" + 00' 44"
5. MENCHOV Denis 131 RABOBANK 28h 24' 43" + 01' 03"
6. VALVERDE Alejandro 31 CAISSE D’EPARGNE 28h 24' 52" + 01' 12"
7. MILLAR David 198 GARMIN CHIPOTLE 28h 24' 54" + 01' 14"
8. DEVOLDER Stijn 91 QUICK STEP 28h 25' 01" + 01' 21"
9. PEREIRO SIO Oscar 37 CAISSE D’EPARGNE 28h 25' 01" + 01' 21"
10. LÖVKVIST Thomas 48 TEAM COLUMBIA 28h 25' 01" + 01' 21"
11. SANCHEZ Samuel 27 EUSKALTEL - EUSKADI 28h 25' 07" + 01' 27"
12. SASTRE Carlos 11 TEAM CSC SAXO BANK 28h 25' 14" + 01' 34"
13. SCHLECK Frank 17 TEAM CSC SAXO BANK 28h 25' 36" + 01' 56"
14. SCHLECK Andy 16 TEAM CSC SAXO BANK 28h 25' 38" + 01' 58"
15. KOHL Bernhard 115 GEROLSTEINER 28h 25' 43" + 02' 03"
16. MONFORT Maxime 189 COFIDIS CREDIT PAR TELEPHONE 28h 25' 47" + 02' 07"
17. CUNEGO Damiano 71 LAMPRE 28h 25' 49" + 02' 09"
18. ASTARLOZA Mikel 22 EUSKALTEL - EUSKADI 28h 25' 56" + 02' 16"
19. VALJAVEC Tadej 109 AG2R-LA MONDIALE 28h 25' 59" + 02' 19"
20. KREUZIGER Roman 65 LIQUIGAS 28h 26' 00" + 02' 20"

Link. (http://www.letour.fr/2008/TDF/LIVE/fr/700/classement/index.html)

[Missouri Mule]

Well, I would say we can safely rule out anyone past position #32 (Popovych).
I see that Freire and Hincapie no longer have any chance. And as you say Moreau dropped out, effectively ending his career and Big "Maggie" was eliminated on time. Down to 171. That stage yesterday really wore them out and today gave no respite. Tomorrow is somewhat easier but is no picnic.

Amazing what happens when doping is removed from the game. We see who can actually get it done on ability and skill rather than artificially pumped up with EPO and blood transfusions.

This is the tour link.

http://www.letour.fr/2008/TDF/LIVE/us/700/classement/index.html

[Turenne]

Unfortunately, people assumed we were free of doping last year, until a specialist climber became a cycling god in the space of a few weeks. I doubt this will be a scandal free Tour this year.

However, if there are no more further doping scandals can we assume next years tour will pit the likes of Basso, Contador and Kloden against each other? Should be tasty.

[Missouri Mule]

Unfortunately, people assumed we were free of doping last year, until a specialist climber became a cycling god in the space of a few weeks. I doubt this will be a scandal free Tour this year.

However, if there are no more further doping scandals can we assume next years tour will pit the likes of Basso, Contador and Kloden against each other? Should be tasty.

Your guess is as good as mine. It is obvious to me that in these early stages the riders are not rebounding as they did in the past. That was from the steriod boost they got. When they are already racing on a razor's edge I think they are behaving more as normal human athletes; not as pumped up drug testing laboratories. So far as I know, none of the top riders this year has been linked to drugs. Millar used to be but admitted to his drug use and received his suspension and is now one of the foremost advocates for a drug free environment.

I'm unaware that Kloden had any connections to drugs although I haven't researched it.

[Turenne]

I didn't say Kloden did drugs, I'm just assuming/hoping he, Basso and Contador will be back next year in new teams. This year seems badly short of big names.

[The_Penguin]

And somebody already needed a fix.

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/30610_Shocka-_Tour_De_France_Rider_Caught_Doping

[Missouri Mule]

And somebody already needed a fix.

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/30610_Shocka-_Tour_De_France_Rider_Caught_Doping

Good grief! And he wasn't even a contender. Lock them all up. Do what is required.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

This is more on the story.

Beltran Tests Positive as Doping Hits Tour Again
Email this Story

Jul 11, 7:29 PM (ET)

By JEROME PUGMIRE

(AP) French gendarme are seen outside the hotel of the Liquigas cycling team in Le Rouget, central...

AURILLAC, France (AP) -Doping is back at the Tour de France. It did not stay away very long.

The peaceful lull that had observers feeling optimistic did not last longer than a week, and the showcase race that was plunged into depths of despair last year, sank right back down again following news Friday of Manuel Beltran's positive test for the performance-enhancer EPO.

He was immediately kicked out of the Tour and suspended by his team, Liquigas.

"When are these idiots going to learn that it's over?" said Pat McQuaid, the leader of the International Cycling Union. "They continue to think that they can beat the system. They're wrong. The system is catching up all the time."

The 37-year-old Spanish rider, who rode alongside Lance Armstrong for three years as one of U.S. Postal's cyclists, was taken away by French police within two hours of the positive test. He can ask for a "B" sample, although these rarely clear riders. If he does ask for it and he fails that test, too, he will be fired by the team, its directors said...

(Snip)

http://sports.myway.com/news/07112008/v9947.html

[Missouri Mule]

I didn't say Kloden did drugs, I'm just assuming/hoping he, Basso and Contador will be back next year in new teams. This year seems badly short of big names.

I believe Evans was on the podium last year. This guy is solid everywhere. Has no weaknesses that I can discern.

[Dangerrmouse]

Valverde for me.

[Turenne]

The old guard keep fecking the sport up. He won't be the only one, apparently there is at least 9 more riders who are being watched closely. It will take a new more humble generation to change this.

[Turenne]

I believe Evans was on the podium last year. This guy is solid everywhere. Has no weaknesses that I can discern.

As I said his team is weak compared to the likes CSC and caisse d'epargne.

[Missouri Mule]

The old guard keep fecking the sport up. He won't be the only one, apparently there is at least 9 more riders who are being watched closely. It will take a new more humble generation to change this.

Who are they? Do you know offhand?

[Missouri Mule]

As I said his team is weak compared to the likes CSC and caisse d'epargne.

I'm beginning to be impressed with Team Columbia. Kirchen seems solid to me and it will be interesting to see how he does tomorrow. I still believe Evans is going to win it. Tomorrow will definitely shake out a bunch of them and we'll know who has a realistic chance to win it. I now have the absolute maximum list of possibles as I stop with Popyvich, now at position #31. Offhand, I don't know who dropped out of the list since yesterday. I just checked. It was Beltran at #26, now gone. That explains that.

Cavendish appears to be the new sprinting champion. Evidently McEwen is near the end of the line and think he knows it. Father time just caught up with him; it would appear and there are fewer chances for any sprinters in the coming stages. Although Cavendish has won two stages he is only 143 in the standings which shows why they need their own goal as they are not competitive in the mountains.

Tomorrow's race begins at 6 AM CDT so it would be about 12 noon for your area. We get our coverage on Versus. So I have to set my alarm clock as this one ought to be terrific and Monday even better. It begins at 6:30AM CDT, an hour earlier.

[Turenne]

Who are they? Do you know offhand?

No I don't. The commentators on Eurosport were saying that ten cyclists were tested at the start of the Tour and discovered to have very high levels of a certain substance - I can't remember what - in their blood. These cyclists, including Beltran, are being watched and tested closely. Obviously the other nine haven't tested positive yet, but also there is clearly something off about their earlier tests.

Regardless, Beltran is part of an old guard that isn't willing to change. Did Armstrong say anything on American TV about Beltran, he was one of his domestiques I think.

[Missouri Mule]

No I don't. The commentators on Eurosport were saying that ten cyclists were tested at the start of the Tour and discovered to have very high levels of a certain substance - I can't remember what - in their blood. These cyclists, including Beltran, are being watched and tested closely. Obviously the other nine haven't tested positive yet, but also there is clearly something off about their earlier tests.

Regardless, Beltran is part of an old guard that isn't willing to change. Did Armstrong say anything on American TV about Beltran, he was one of his domestiques I think.

Yes, he was. And the first thing I thought of was whether the authorities would try to squeeze Beltran to give up any possible doping information on Armstrong. As you know this has hung over his head for many years. That would be the ultimate disaster if it were true.

If there are more found then I think the only thing that will break the back of this is lifetime banning. This is the type of draconian measure that was taken after the 1919 Chicago "Black Sox" scandal when some baseball players threw the WS. Among the victims was one "Shoeless Joe Jackson" and the famous quote was "Say it ain't so, Joe."

The great irony in this is that the baseball commissioner who cleaned up that mess was one Judge Kenesaw Mountain Landis. Although both come from Lancaster, PA. my research indicates he is not related to Floyd Landis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenesaw_Mountain_Landis

http://genforum.genealogy.com/landis/messages/1381.html

[Turenne]

Muley, the article about the ten riders should be in l' equipe somewhere if you want to take a look. There doesn't seem to be a english version of the site however.

[Missouri Mule]

Muley, the article about the ten riders should be in l' equipe somewhere if you want to take a look. There doesn't seem to be a english version of the site however.

Thanks. I might be able to make out enough French to get at their names. I'll take a look. I got into the site OK and used their search feature. The only one I could find mentioned that I understood was Mayo but he isn't riding this year. My French is not very good (about non-existent) although I spent three years in France years ago.

If you should learn their names, please feel free to PM me if you don't want to post the names publically. Thanks!

[Turenne]

Rocci got another stage win and surely put himself in contention for the GC, also got a podium in the Giro so the kid has pedigree. Evans crashed, a lot of cuts and bruises, likely to be sore through the night and tomorrow. Cunego looked stronger, Valverde still struggling, the likes of Vandevelde and Sastre still very quiet. I fancy either Rocci or Perriero tomorrow personally, both looked very strong today. I'm sure the likes of Kirchen, Schumacher and Menchov will go the way of Miller tomorrow and fall out of the back of the peleton.

1. KIRCHEN Kim 41 TEAM COLUMBIA 38h 07' 19"
2. EVANS Cadel 1 SILENCE - LOTTO 38h 07' 25" + 00' 06"
3. VANDEVELDE Christian 191 GARMIN CHIPOTLE 38h 08' 03" + 00' 44"
4. SCHUMACHER Stefan 111 GEROLSTEINER 38h 08' 15" + 00' 56"
5. MENCHOV Denis 131 RABOBANK 38h 08' 22" + 01' 03"
6. VALVERDE Alejandro 31 CAISSE D’EPARGNE 38h 08' 31" + 01' 12"
7. DEVOLDER Stijn 91 QUICK STEP 38h 08' 40" + 01' 21"
8. PEREIRO SIO Oscar 37 CAISSE D’EPARGNE 38h 08' 40" + 01' 21"
9. SANCHEZ Samuel 27 EUSKALTEL - EUSKADI 38h 08' 46" + 01' 27"
10. SASTRE Carlos 11 TEAM CSC SAXO BANK 38h 08' 53" + 01' 34"
11. SCHLECK Frank 17 TEAM CSC SAXO BANK 38h 09' 15" + 01' 56"
12. SCHLECK Andy 16 TEAM CSC SAXO BANK 38h 09' 17" + 01' 58"
13. KOHL Bernhard 115 GEROLSTEINER 38h 09' 22" + 02' 03"
14. MONFORT Maxime 189 COFIDIS CREDIT PAR TELEPHONE 38h 09' 26" + 02' 07"
15. CUNEGO Damiano 71 LAMPRE 38h 09' 28" + 02' 09"
16. ASTARLOZA Mikel 22 EUSKALTEL - EUSKADI 38h 09' 35" + 02' 16"
17. VALJAVEC Tadej 109 AG2R-LA MONDIALE 38h 09' 38" + 02' 19"
18. KREUZIGER Roman 65 LIQUIGAS 38h 09' 39" + 02' 20"
19. KNEES Christian 153 TEAM MILRAM 38h 09' 50" + 02' 31"
20. BRUSEGHIN Marzio 74 LAMPRE 38h 09' 52" + 02' 33"
21. RICCO Riccardo 171 SAUNIER DUVAL - SCOTT 38h 09' 54" + 02' 35"

Link. (http://www.letour.fr/2008/TDF/LIVE/fr/900/classement/index.html)

[Missouri Mule]

Rocci got another stage win and surely put himself in contention for the GC, also got a podium in the Giro so the kid has pedigree. Evans crashed, a lot of cuts and bruises, likely to be sore through the night and tomorrow. Cunego looked stronger, Valverde still struggling, the likes of Vandevelde and Sastre still very quiet. I fancy either Rocci or Perriero tomorrow personally, both looked very strong today. I'm sure the likes of Kirchen, Schumacher and Menchov will go the way of Miller tomorrow and fall out of the back of the peleton.

Link. (http://www.letour.fr/2008/TDF/LIVE/fr/900/classement/index.html)

You could be right but I am holding my fire. Kirchen might be sandbagging with his post race comments. In any event, we'll surely know tomorrow. I count the possible contenders down to the top #27, ending with Popovych. I'm not sure why you believe Menchov will fall out of the back of the peleton. He is still holding his fifth place position, only 1 minute and 3 seconds out of first. I would doubt that Ricco can win it unless he becomes superman. If he does tomorrow what he did today, then of course it is conceivably possible. I still believe Evans has to be considered the favorite with Valverde coming in second. The difference would come in the next time trial and that doesn't come until stage 20.

The fun starts at 6 AM CDT so I have to turn in early tonight. Five hours scheduled for tomorrow morning. I can hardly wait.

No further dropouts today. Still at 170 riders remaining although I expect that to change after tomorrow.

[Turenne]

Menchov invariably flatters to decieve, tends to be very inconsistent and will be isolated tomorrow like Evans. Cadel can deal with that, I'm not so sure Menchov can. Its clear Valverde isn't as strong as people have assumed, and Perriero was called back from an attack today to help him out. For me Perriero is the star of that Caisses d'epargne team and less we forget he did win the Tour in '06, something that people seem to almost forget to give him credit for.

Ricco looked very comfortable today, and is clearly an exceptional climber. He can't time trial though but nonethless I have no doubt he will at least attempt another attack tomorrow. It might be worth watching Cunego is well, he could be finding his feet after a poor start.

So my prediction for tomorrow is a Ricco victory, with Menchov, Kirchen and Schumacher out the back. ;) How about you MM?

[Missouri Mule]

Menchov invariably flatters to decieve, tends to be very inconsistent and will be isolated tomorrow like Evans. Cadel can deal with that, I'm not so sure Menchov can. Its clear Valverde isn't as strong as people have assumed, and Perriero was called back from an attack today to help him out. For me Perriero is the star of that Caisses d'epargne team and less we forget he did win the Tour in '06, something that people seem to almost forget to give him credit for.

Ricco looked very comfortable today, and is clearly an exceptional climber. He can't time trial though but nonethless I have no doubt he will at least attempt another attack tomorrow. It might be worth watching Cunego is well, he could be finding his feet after a poor start.

So my prediction for tomorrow is a Ricco victory, with Menchov, Kirchen and Schumacher out the back. ;) How about you MM?

Tough one to call. Perriero looked strong. I doubt Ricco will repeat although it can't be ruled out. How badly hurt is Evans? How about one of the Schleck brothers? As I said, I put the cut-off at Popovych. I'm curious if Kirchen is being straight up or is sandbagging. His problem is lack of team members on the climb. And Vandevelde is hanging tough. I'll say one of the Schleck brothers. It'll be someone in the top 27 and we'll know soon enough, I believe, who is truly going to contend.

Time to go to bed. Race coverage begins in just over six hours. Later.

(I watched it twice and certainly Ricco was extremely strong but I believe the rest were just looking to the next stage and saving their energy. Ricco could be entirely used up by tomorow. We'll see.)

[Turenne]

I think after that its fair to say that the likes of Valverde, Andy Schleck, Perriero and Cunega are gone. Evans takes yellow, and I have a feeling it will stay on his back to Paris and Piepoli takes the stage. Frank Schleck other big winner. The top 6 are the main contendors.

1. EVANS Cadel 1 SILENCE - LOTTO 42h 29' 09"
2. SCHLECK Frank 17 TEAM CSC SAXO BANK 42h 29' 10" + 00' 01"
3. VANDEVELDE Christian 191 GARMIN CHIPOTLE 42h 29' 47" + 00' 38"
4. KOHL Bernhard 115 GEROLSTEINER 42h 29' 55" + 00' 46"
5. MENCHOV Denis 131 RABOBANK 42h 30' 06" + 00' 57"
6. SASTRE Carlos 11 TEAM CSC SAXO BANK 42h 30' 37" + 01' 28"
7. KIRCHEN Kim 41 TEAM COLUMBIA 42h 31' 05" + 01' 56"
8. COBO ACEBO Juan Jose 173 SAUNIER DUVAL - SCOTT 42h 31' 19" + 02' 10"
9. RICCO Riccardo 171 SAUNIER DUVAL - SCOTT 42h 31' 38" + 02' 29"
10. EFIMKIN Vladimir 104 AG2R-LA MONDIALE 42h 31' 41" + 02' 32"
11. ASTARLOZA Mikel 22 EUSKALTEL - EUSKADI 42h 33' 00" + 03' 51"
12. NIBALI Vincenzo 67 LIQUIGAS 42h 33' 27" + 04' 18"
13. SANCHEZ Samuel 27 EUSKALTEL - EUSKADI 42h 33' 35" + 04' 26"
14. VALVERDE Alejandro 31 CAISSE D’EPARGNE 42h 33' 50" + 04' 41"
15. VALJAVEC Tadej 109 AG2R-LA MONDIALE 42h 34' 32" + 05' 23"
16. CUNEGO Damiano 71 LAMPRE 42h 34' 46" + 05' 37"
17. PEREIRO SIO Oscar 37 CAISSE D’EPARGNE 42h 35' 10" + 06' 01"
18. SCHUMACHER Stefan 111 GEROLSTEINER 42h 35' 20" + 06' 11"
19. DUENAS NEVADO Moises 56 BARLOWORLD 42h 35' 52" + 06' 43"
20. MONFORT Maxime 189 COFIDIS CREDIT PAR TELEPHONE 42h 35' 56" + 06' 47"

Link. (http://www.letour.fr/2008/TDF/LIVE/fr/1000/classement/index.html)

[Missouri Mule]

I think after that its fair to say that the likes of Valverde, Andy Schleck, Perriero and Cunega are gone. Evans takes yellow, and I have a feeling it will stay on his back to Paris and Piepoli takes the stage. Frank Schleck other big winner. The top 6 are the main contendors.

Link. (http://www.letour.fr/2008/TDF/LIVE/fr/1000/classement/index.html)

I would disagree slightly. The ones you mentioned could make that up with a breakaway on a flat section.

I would, however, say that the GC winner will likely come from the first 10 riders. But I would extend the possible winners through postion #23, TEN DAM Laurens. The time spread to the next position is nearly three minutes so I would cut if off there. Popovych drops out of contention as he is now down nearly 19 minutes.

Frank Schleck certainly looked strong. Vandevelde looks like a genuine contender. Kirchen is still in the hunt even though he dropped off the pace. He did what he had to do. I don't know much about Kohl. This could easily come down to the time trial on Stage 20. Personally, I wish the Tour would dispense with the victory parade and make it count for something other than a formality. I'm of the Yogi Berra school that says "It ain't over until it's over." Evidently the Tour feels otherwise.

For a clue to the winner, study the time trial of Stage #4. Frank Schleck finished 2' 8" off the winning time. Your strong riders were Evans, Vandevelde and Kirchen. But consider that Shumacher won the time trial. But he rode himself out of the tour today. Kohl was 1'47" off in the time trial. Menchov was 1'12" off. Sastre was 1'47" off. Neither Cobo nor Ricco time trialed well. Efimkin didn't sit the world on fire.

Based on this, one would have to say that the race should logically come down to Evans, Vandevelde and Menchov; Kirchen if he can limit his losses in the coming stages.

[Missouri Mule]

In looking over the actual time trial results rather than the standings at the time, I missed a couple of other names that have to be in the mix. Sastre and Kohl have to be included.

The second time trial is considerably longer than the first time trial. I would say that there are six or seven riders in serious contention for the GC title.

I watched the race a second time tonight and I would not count out Kirchen just yet.

[Missouri Mule]

Pretty much lays out the legitimate contenders. Evans, Sastre, Menchov and Schleck. I also believe that Vandevelde and Kirchen should be in the mix. In fact, I wouldn't rule out anyone in the top ten of the overall GC standings. The spread between #10 and #11 seems to be a logical dividing line. It would be extremely unlikely that that could be bridged short of an unexpected breakaway or an incredible time trial.

A caveat: If one of those below position #10 were to somehow reproduce what Pereiro did in 2006 it would be conceivably possible. However, I think the top contenders will not permit that to happen again.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2008/tour08/news/?id=/news/2008/jul08/jul16news

[Turenne]

MM you might like this article (http://www.sportsscientists.com/2008/07/le-tour-de-france-2008-are-we.html) about doping and The Tour.

[pedex]

well if youve read most of the cycling books written by riders finding out that Beltran got busted is no surprise

they cannot hide their performance numbers, those alone are cause enough to suspect doping--when someone puts out an effort that requires a VO2max in the 90's range one has to say hmmmmmmmm

anyway after stage 10 it looks like Evans, Ricco, Vandevelde, Schleck have the best shot for the GC and thats only if they let Ricco take a shot at it. So far Saunier Duval has only been after stage wins and having a great time blasting the peloton to bits in the mountains, all three of their top climbers could have finished 1,2,3 on stage 10

Sastre as usual has no shot, he's a perennial third place. Valverde? Dude fell apart. Menchov might hang in there though.

still lots of racing left, the lack of time bonuses and drugs has tightened up the racing considerably

can't believe Cavendish, dude hit almost 55 mph in the sprint win he had the other day..........that is completely insane

[Missouri Mule]

MM you might like this article (http://www.sportsscientists.com/2008/07/le-tour-de-france-2008-are-we.html) about doping and The Tour.

That was a very good article. Thanks for the heads-up. I imagine that it was endemic in the sport and hopefully it is now being cleaned up. Long overdue. They nailed another one today. As I have said, I believe lifetime banning should be the rule.

We, of course, have the so-called baseball "home run king" Barry Bonds who is phony as a three dollar bill and will likely be pulling some serious prison time for lying to a grand jury. His head size even expanded while he was doping. One can look at his earlier photos and compare to later photos and he looks like a different person. It's ridiculous. I say zero tolerance. Once caught, and you're out. No reprieves.

A sport in order to have credibility must be honest and if they are doping we are not seeing a sport. We are seeing a test laboratory and that's not what I am interested as I'm sure you are not either.

[Missouri Mule]

well if youve read most of the cycling books written by riders finding out that Beltran got busted is no surprise

they cannot hide their performance numbers, those alone are cause enough to suspect doping--when someone puts out an effort that requires a VO2max in the 90's range one has to say hmmmmmmmm

anyway after stage 10 it looks like Evans, Ricco, Vandevelde, Schleck have the best shot for the GC and thats only if they let Ricco take a shot at it. So far Saunier Duval has only been after stage wins and having a great time blasting the peloton to bits in the mountains, all three of their top climbers could have finished 1,2,3 on stage 10

Sastre as usual has no shot, he's a perennial third place. Valverde? Dude fell apart. Menchov might hang in there though.

still lots of racing left, the lack of time bonuses and drugs has tightened up the racing considerably

can't believe Cavendish, dude hit almost 55 mph in the sprint win he had the other day..........that is completely insane

I think the first 10 riders are the legitimate contenders but I extend it down to position #23 at -8'48" just to be safe in the event of another unexpected breakaway such as 2006. Nothing is impossible. We have the Alps and we have a long stage #20 time trial.

Having said that, the Alps could greatly thin the numbers down to a precious few but then there is the matter of injuries. So as Yogi Berra said, "it's not over until it's over."

If one rules out Pereiro as one who backed into the 2006 win by Landis's disqualification then one has to consider the following riders. This is the results of the 2006 tour.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Tour_de_France#General_Classification

[Turenne]

That 2006 breakaway was a bit of a fluke though, and it was ludicrous enough that day that they left a high class performer like Periero get away. It won't happen again methinks, and tbh I doubt the likes of Periero and Valverde have it in them now to put so much time on the yellow jersey. Basically, Periero not Valverde should have been the team leader but I understand back in Spain Valverde is the popular one, the hero, the big hope of Spanish cycling. Hence why Periero was relegated to a support role despite being the superior three week performer.

While I still don't know those 10 cyclists under watch besides Beltran, I understand Ricco was one of the ten. So heads up, although he didn't look too clever after his last stage win.

[Missouri Mule]

That 2006 breakaway was a bit of a fluke though, and it was ludicrous enough that day that they left a high class performer like Periero get away. It won't happen again methinks, and tbh I doubt the likes of Periero and Valverde have it in them now to put so much time on the yellow jersey. Basically, Periero not Valverde should have been the team leader but I understand back in Spain Valverde is the popular one, the hero, the big hope of Spanish cycling. Hence why Periero was relegated to a support role despite being the superior three week performer.

While I still don't know those 10 cyclists under watch besides Beltran, I understand Ricco was one of the ten. So heads up, although he didn't look too clever after his last stage win.

I wondered about him in that he looked a bit too strong. Interesting.

[pedex]

While I still don't know those 10 cyclists under watch besides Beltran, I understand Ricco was one of the ten. So heads up, although he didn't look too clever after his last stage win.

they are tracking hemacrit levels quite closely, wattage numbers too

beltran came under suspicion for his hemacrit and when tested he came up positive for EPO

[pedex]

http://tour-de-france.velonews.com/article/80218/second-rider-tests-positive-at-tour

duenas is gone, busted for EPO

[Turenne]

The whole Saunier Duval team is now gone. Ricco tested positive.

Link. (http://tour-de-france.velonews.com/article/80269/riccardo-ricco-tests-positive-he-and-his-saunier-duval-team)

Shouldn't this give Schleck the yellow jersey?

[Antipathy]

The whole Saunier Duval team is now gone. Ricco tested positive.

Link. (http://tour-de-france.velonews.com/article/80269/riccardo-ricco-tests-positive-he-and-his-saunier-duval-team)

Shouldn't this give Schleck the yellow jersey?Jeez, this is getting as bad as last year. The sport is now losing what little credibility it had left. :(

I agree with Muley, the best way to stamp this problem out of cycling, once and for all, is to get really tough. Only I would go further than just banning the cheats for life, I would also boot the entire team out of a tour if one of their riders is caught during it. Draconian yes, but it would put enormous pressure on the teams to ensure that all their riders are clean.

[pedex]

Jeez, this is getting as bad as last year. The sport is now losing what little credibility it had left. :(

I agree with Muley, the best way to stamp this problem out of cycling, once and for all, is to get really tough. Only I would go further than just banning the cheats for life, I would also boot the entire team out of a tour if one of their riders is caught during it. Draconian yes, but it would put enormous pressure on the teams to ensure that all their riders are clean.

well ya know, the funny thing here is they eject the riders but the coaches and soigneurs are still around..........why is Riis still in pro cycling? Why is Brunyneel still around? why are all these known doping coaches/director sportiffs still in the game?

you have to clean the slate completely

[Missouri Mule]

I just turned on the TV and saw the dreadful news. Turenne certainly pegged Ricco right. Let's hope that the 10 are now out of the race.

I feel for the honest riders though. They will inevitably be tarred along with the cheaters.

They say that this is a new kind of EPO and now can be detected. Whatever, I still believe the only way to fix this problem once and for all is to ban them for a lifetime. This is the way I also feel about those who cheat in other aspects of our lives, the stock market manipulators and inside traders and all the rest. Make the penalty so strong that the ultimate penalty short of death is that their lives are going to be ruined and they be rendered pennyless. This creep here in the U.S. who brought on much of the housing meltdown is also associated with the 2nd largest bank failure in U.S. history. This is being reflected all around the world as well. They should put him in jail for a 100 years and strip him of all of his ill gotten money. I think the same should be done with these cyclist cheaters. Make the penalty so severe they lose everything.

[Turenne]

Jeez, this is getting as bad as last year. The sport is now losing what little credibility it had left. :(

I agree with Muley, the best way to stamp this problem out of cycling, once and for all, is to get really tough. Only I would go further than just banning the cheats for life, I would also boot the entire team out of a tour if one of their riders is caught during it. Draconian yes, but it would put enormous pressure on the teams to ensure that all their riders are clean.

Not really. Most people have known it will get worse before it will get better, I at least was expecting doping scandals and I'm sure there will be more.

What I will say is that certain teams (the ones with the big budgets usually) are taking internal testing very seriously and I'm sure the majority of riders are clean. The cheats are getting caught out quicker then last year, and I for one will ocntinue to follow the tour because I'm sure the main players like Evans and the CSC team are clean. Ricco was never a contendor because he was an awful time trialist, and you have to be suspicious of any rider whos hero was Pantini.

[Turenne]

I just turned on the TV and saw the dreadful news. Turenne certainly pegged Ricco right. Let's hope that the 10 are now out of the race.

I feel for the honest riders though. They will inevitably be tarred along with the cheaters.

They say that this is a new kind of EPO and now can be detected. Whatever, I still believe the only way to fix this problem once and for all is to ban them for a lifetime. This is the way I also feel about those who cheat in other aspects of our lives, the stock market manipulators and inside traders and all the rest. Make the penalty so strong that the ultimate penalty short of death is that their lives are going to be ruined and they be rendered pennyless. This creep here in the U.S. who brought on much of the housing meltdown is also associated with the 2nd largest bank failure in U.S. history. This is being reflected all around the world as well. They should put him in jail for a 100 years and strip him of all of his ill gotten money. I think the same should be done with these cyclist cheaters. Make the penalty so severe they lose everything.

There is a possibility that Nevada is going to do time in jail, which is punishment enough imo.

[Turenne]

Maybe we should take bets as to who will be found out next? ;)

My money is on Vandevelde, who has turned from an above average rider to a GC contendor in the space of a year. Contador as well I should think if he was riding this year, beat out Ricco in the Giro. Probably half of the Barloworld and Saunier Duval teams as well.

[Turenne]

Article (http://www.sportsscientists.com/2008/07/le-tour-de-france-2008-third-doping.html) on Ricco and CERA.

[Missouri Mule]

Today's stage just about wore me out. I got up at about 5AM and it was telecast in full. My thoughts:

Taking into account the overall time differentials and the time trials from the fourth stage I believe the following have the best chance of winning the tour in this order. This of course will and probably will change on the remaining mountain stages. But the winner will unlikely be determined until Stage 20; the last and longest time trial. Menchov and Vandevelde will be Evan's strongest competitors. If Kirken turns in a super time trail I would still give him a chance at an upset. Unless Sastre and Valverde do better time trials I do not believe they will win. Nibali will be a real dark horse but not impossible. Unfortunately we lost Pereiro today and I wouldn't have counted him out unless he fell way off the pack today. We will never know, of course. The last time trial, of course, could turn everything on its head.

1) Evans
2) Menchov
3) Vandevelde
4) Kirken
5) Nibali
6) Valverde
7) Sastre
8) Kohl
9) Schleck F.
10) Cunego

[Missouri Mule]

Article (http://www.sportsscientists.com/2008/07/le-tour-de-france-2008-third-doping.html) on Ricco and CERA.

That was an interesting and informative article you linked. Thanks!!

[Turenne]

What a stage! :) Everyone was suffering by the end, if Sastre/Menchov/Kohl were stronger they could have put serious time on Scleck, Vandevelde and Evans, the last two in particular looked like they hit the wall. After that, anything could happen and Evans looks a lot less like the red hot favourite after today.

I'll go with Frank Schleck right not because of the incredible strength of his team and his climbing ability. After today, who knows what Sastre and Menchov can do? Add Evans and Kohl into the mix and I think you have the five contendors. Vandevelde looked the weakest of the top six today, the guy clearly lacks aggression and I can't help but think he is a little out of his depth. Cunego, Nibali, Valverde, Kirchen etc have no chance imo. Kirchen and Cunego in particular are going to lose a lot of time over the Alps.

Shame about Perriero, my favourite rider. I missed the crash but apparently it was bad. Hopefully he will be back next year leading a team as he deserves rather then playing support.

[Turenne]

That was an interesting and informative article you linked. Thanks!!

Its an excellent website. I have a hard time understanding how Ricco got busted for CERA when apparently they haven't developed a test to locate it in the bloodstream. Anyway, its good that they have so quickly being able to detect the newest form of EPO.

[Missouri Mule]

What a stage! :) Everyone was suffering by the end, if Sastre/Menchov/Kohl were stronger they could have put serious time on Scleck, Vandevelde and Evans, the last two in particular looked like they hit the wall. After that, anything could happen and Evans looks a lot less like the red hot favourite after today.

I'll go with Frank Schleck right not because of the incredible strength of his team and his climbing ability. After today, who knows what Sastre and Menchov can do? Add Evans and Kohl into the mix and I think you have the five contendors. Vandevelde looked the weakest of the top six today, the guy clearly lacks aggression and I can't help but think he is a little out of his depth. Cunego, Nibali, Valverde, Kirchen etc have no chance imo. Kirchen and Cunego in particular are going to lose a lot of time over the Alps.

Shame about Perriero, my favourite rider. I missed the crash but apparently it was bad. Hopefully he will be back next year leading a team as he deserves rather then playing support.

I have a slightly different take. Vandevelde was interviewed after the race and seemed to be in good shape and optimistc. I believe that Evans and Kirchen both held their own. And they in particular time trial very well as does Vandevelde.

Schleck doesn't time trial well and Kohl didn't set the world on fire.

Evans was off by 27 seconds, Menchov off by 34 seconds, Kirchen off by 18 seconds and Vandevelde off by 37 seconds. Nibalie was off by 47 seconds. By contrast, Schleck was off by 2.14, and Kohl off by 1.47. And we are looking at a time trial twice the distance of the first.

Evans biggest problem is the supporting cast aside from Popovych. Vandevelde has a strong team. Obviously Schleck does but he doesn't time trial well. Menchov is the most dangerous. Kirchen has a strong team.

I believe anyone down through Nibali has to be considered as a possible winner. That's 12 positions I believe should still be in the mix. It ain't over until it's over.

I believe the winner will likely come from Evans, Menchov, Vandevelde or Kirchen based on their time trial times. (Valverde would the longest of the long shots) If they are able to keep within striking distance in the mountains the time trial will determine the winner. Even Kirchen is only 2'48" back. Sastre would be in the mix but can't (or hasn't) time trial. Of course stage 17 could turn everything upside down. That's when CSC holds such a big advantage but then again they don't have a "closer". And we still have three remaining mountain stages where anything might happen.

I probably sound like I am rambling but as I have looked over the teams, the route, the current times, the time trialing, it is still a wide open contest. I would be hesitant to place a bet on the winner. I do believe it will come from the four above, however. (Evans, Menchov, Vandevelde or Kirchen.)

This may make it somewhat easier to understand. Adding the current time differentials to the time trialing gives the following total numbers.

Evans -35"
Menchov -1'12"
Vandevelde -1'16"
Kohl 1'53"
Sastre 2'12"
Schleck 2'14"
Kirchen 3'06"
Valverde 5'45"
Efimkin 5'50"
Sanchez 6'05"
Nibali 6'09"
Astarloza 7'0"

[pedex]

it is still a wide open contest. I would be hesitant to place a bet on the winner. I do believe it will come from the four above, however.



duh, told ya that back in the beginning

very little drug use plus no time bonuses at the finish = close racing

[bowerbird]

Sorry but I just want to rub in the fact that the leader is an Aussie:D

[Turenne]

Hang on...Frank Schleck's an aussie? Or are you talking about Kohl? Friere?Their European accents really put me off... ;)

[Turenne]

I think your getting ahead of yourself MM. The TT's are important but we have two huge mountian stages left where Kirchen, for one, is going to suffer. He will be long gone by the TT, while people like Frank Schleck, Sastre and Kohl are exceptional climbers. If one of them keep the yellow jersey going into TT then who knows? Having the yellow jersey on your back can make incredible things happen.

Regarding Vandevelde, good TT or not, the guys a follower not a leader. A podium finish at best.

[Missouri Mule]

I think your getting ahead of yourself MM. The TT's are important but we have two huge mountian stages left where Kirchen, for one, is going to suffer. He will be long gone by the TT, while people like Frank Schleck, Sastre and Kohl are exceptional climbers. If one of them keep the yellow jersey going into TT then who knows? Having the yellow jersey on your back can make incredible things happen.

Regarding Vandevelde, good TT or not, the guys a follower not a leader. A podium finish at best.

I agree that Kirchen has had to tough it out in the mountains but he is still within striking range and there is no question but that he excels in the time trials as does Evans. And we are looking at a stage twice as long as the first one. I don't believe that the three you have named can give up 5-6 minutes in the time trial and come out winning the tour. I seriously doubt they are going to put that much time on him and certainly not Evans. Kirchen still has a strong team of good riders to shepherd him over the mountains and Evans has Popovych who is quite good in his own right and likely to be a team leader in coming tours.

But you may well be right. But then we really won't know until the time trial. Remember when Rasmussen was high up in the standings and utterly fell apart in the last time trial? Now I would concede this. If they build up 8-10 minutes in the mountains that would be very difficult to overcome. Then we would have to look to Menchov who is equally strong in the time trial. If a gun were held to my head, I would say it will come down to Evans and Menchov. Just to review again. Here are the top 10. They don't get much closer than that. The first six riders separated by only 49 seconds.

OVERALL STANDING BY POINTS

* 1.SCHLECK F. CSC 63h 57' 21"
* 2.KOHL B. GST 00' 07"
* 3.EVANS C. SIL 00' 08"
* 4.MENCHOV D. RAB 00' 38"
* 5.VANDEVELDE C. TSL 00' 39"
* 6.SASTRE C. CSC 00' 49"
* 7.KIRCHEN K. THR 02' 48"
* 8.EFIMKIN V. ALM 03' 36"
* 9.VALVERDE A. GCE 04' 11"
* 10.SANCHEZ S. EUS 04' 34"

[Missouri Mule]

Sorry but I just want to rub in the fact that the leader is an Aussie:D

Evans, the Aussie, was in the yellow but he barely lost it today. I still believe he is likely to win it, however. His strongest competitors would be Menchov and Vandevelde in my opinion. But I don't rule out Kirchen being the strong time trialer he is.

Evans probably should have won it last year as well as it was widely speculated that Contador was doping. Evans wound up 2nd on the podium. The whole Astana team with Contador was not invited this year.

Hopefully the whole doping business will cease in the future. We can hope anyway.

[Turenne]

Well we will see what happens over the next couple of days. How the last TT goes could depend on how much physical effort the likes of Evans and Vandevelde put into the next two mountian stages. If they are within sniffing distance of, or have the, yellow jersey the likes of Sastre and Schleck will put every last piece of effort into winning.

Anyway, I'm going to miss tomorrow and Sunday's stages. Will have to live with the late night highlights unfortunately. ;)

[Missouri Mule]

Well we will see what happens over the next couple of days. How the last TT goes could depend on how much physical effort the likes of Evans and Vandevelde put into the next two mountian stages. If they are within sniffing distance of, or have the, yellow jersey the likes of Sastre and Schleck will put every last piece of effort into winning.

Anyway, I'm going to miss tomorrow and Sunday's stages. Will have to live with the late night highlights unfortunately. ;)

Don't miss Wednesday. That is the big enchilada.

[Missouri Mule]

What a stage. I am into a sleep deficit myself having to get up about 5 AM to watch the race.

In any event, I believe we can safely say that this race is almost determined as to the winners. Tomorrow will surely determine it or maybe not.

Evans is sitting in the catbird's seat. He is eight seconds out and can time trial. Schleck and Kohl can't (or didn't) although they lead him. They will have to win it tomorrow for forget it in my opinion. Menchov went up fine but lost considerable time on the way down. Kirchen lost a little more time but he time trials well. Menchov was seen as the big threat but hurt himself greatly. Vandevelde fell on the decline and may be out as a serious threat. But he, like Kirchen time trial very well. I would say that it will most likely be Evans on the podium with Menchov and maybe Sastre, Schleck or Kohl coming in third providing they don't blow up on the TT. Kirchen and Vandevelde still have to maintain their time tomorrow and then have the TT of their lives so they cannot yet be ruled out.

1 017 SCHLECK, Frank LUX CSC 68:30:16 00:00:00
2 115 KOHL, Bernhard AUT GST 68:30:23 00:00:07
3 001 EVANS, Cadel AUS SIL 68:30:24 00:00:08
4 011 SASTRE, Carlos ESP CSC 68:31:05 00:00:49
5 131 MENCHOV, Denis RUS RAB 68:31:29 00:01:13
6 191 VANDEVELDE, Christian USA TSL 68:33:31 00:03:15
7 041 KIRCHEN, Kim LUX THR 68:33:39 00:03:23
8 031 VALVERDE, Alejandro ESP GCE 68:34:27 00:04:11
9 027 SANCHEZ, Samuel ESP EUS 68:34:54 00:04:38
10 109 VALJAVEC, Tadej SLO ALM 68:35:39 00:05:23

[Turenne]

Yeah for Sastre! Delighted for him, one of my fave cyclists, knew he had one big stage in him. Now between him and Evans with Menchov an outside bet. The top three right there in my opinion.

The younger Schleck for tomorrow's stage.

[Turenne]

Article (http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/riccardo-ricc-caught-by-secret-doping-molecule-wada-chief-17678) on how Ricco was caught.

[Missouri Mule]

Yeah for Sastre! Delighted for him, one of my fave cyclists, knew he had one big stage in him. Now between him and Evans with Menchov an outside bet. The top three right there in my opinion.

The younger Schleck for tomorrow's stage.

I think you are probably right. Since Schleck and Kohl can't (or didn't) time trial well, it would seem impossible for them to hold onto their standings. This may come down to a matter of a second or two and who wants it more than the other guy. Menchov has more time to make up but he turned himself inside out in the time trial. But just as a caveat, we still have two stages where something might yet happen. Let's not count the chickens before they hatch.

[Turenne]

Another excellent blog (http://cyclingfansanonymous.blogspot.com/) on doping and cycling itself.

Just from glancing though it I have learned much.

Valverde? Doper.

Cunego? Doper.

Kloden? Doper.

Di Luca? Doper.

Armstrong? Doper.

Moreau? Doper.

Contador? Doper.

etc

[Missouri Mule]

Another excellent blog (http://cyclingfansanonymous.blogspot.com/) on doping and cycling itself.

Just from glancing though it I have learned much.

Valverde? Doper.

Cunego? Doper.

Kloden? Doper.

Di Luca? Doper.

Armstrong? Doper.

Moreau? Doper.

Contador? Doper.

etc

I wouldn't bet the farm on a blog entry. I have often wondered about Kloden mainly on account of the team he rode for. That was the team with Ulrich and Kessler both, dopers for sure. I suspect Contador was doping but haven't seen the proof. If Armstrong was doping he certainly must have perfected it as he never got a positive back and they tested him continuously. On the others I don't know enough, although it was interesting that Moreau had nothing this year and early on abandoned the race. I think it would be instructive to compare all of the top riders with their times in the previous tours and see what the differences are. That should tell the tale.

As to the race itself, these are the ones with any conceivable chance of winning but we know that only three are really in the running. They would be Evans, Sastre and Menchov. The odds favor Evans but Sastre is close enough to hang on during the TT. Menchov is capable of pulling back enough time. I wouldn't be surprised at anything.

We still have another stage race tomorrow which should be uneventful but anything could happen even an accident that would change everything. A rider with a broken collar bone or wrist is not going to win the tour as they simply can't race any longer.

I would add that I am adamantly opposed to the final ceremonial stage. I have thought of writing a personal letter to the main honcho of this race to ask them to consider changing this. I see no purpose in this and may not even watch the final stage on TV as it means nothing except to the rider who wins the stage. I get tired of watching them make 12 circuits through Paris. I would have a genuine race and one tour through downtown Paris and a race to the finish just like all the other stages. Whoever wins on the final time wins the tour. The same rules would apply such as the 3KM rule which I believe is a good one but the idea that the last stage means nothing just obviates what I expect of a true race. My $0.02.

BTW, I expect Kirchen to move up to ninth place in the final standings. He hung in there tough right to the end.

1. SASTRE Carlos 11 TEAM CSC SAXO BANK 79h 16' 14"
2. SCHLECK Frank 17 TEAM CSC SAXO BANK 79h 17' 38" + 01' 24"
3. KOHL Bernhard 115 GEROLSTEINER 79h 17' 47" + 01' 33"
4. EVANS Cadel 1 SILENCE - LOTTO 79h 17' 48" + 01' 34"
5. MENCHOV Denis 131 RABOBANK 79h 18' 53" + 02' 39"
6. VANDEVELDE Christian 191 GARMIN CHIPOTLE 79h 20' 55" + 04' 41"
7. VALVERDE Alejandro 31 CAISSE D’EPARGNE 79h 21' 49" + 05' 35"
8. SANCHEZ Samuel 27 EUSKALTEL - EUSKADI 79h 22' 06" + 05' 52"
9. VALJAVEC Tadej 109 AG2R-LA MONDIALE 79h 24' 24" + 08' 10"
10. EFIMKIN Vladimir 104 AG2R-LA MONDIALE 79h 24' 38" + 08' 24"
11. KIRCHEN Kim 41 TEAM COLUMBIA 79h 24' 49" + 08' 35"

[Turenne]

Basically, the best proof beyond a positive test is watching them race. Cunego, Valverde and Moreau, all consistently high finishers or victors in grand tours and this year? Abandons, also rans, all hitting the wall at the site of a mountain...all clearly gone cold turkey, or in Moreau's case doing a runner before he got caught.

Contador? One of the few people to stick with Rasmussen last year in the mountains, implicated in that Spanish doping scandal years back, beating Ricco in this year Giro by two minutes, riding up the Aple d'heuz like it was a molehill...I could go on. Ricco and Piepoli's performance up the Pyrennes, where they strolled up the mountians, straight past the other contendors, not sparing a sweat bead, so like Rasmussen, Contador, Pantini and yes Armstrong. I don't need to get into Di Luca, the guy has a list of evidence against him a mile long, and the kind of company Kloden has kept with T-Mobile and Astana....

Unfortunately the vast majority of these morons will be doing this years Vuelta and next years Tour De France, along seemingly with Basso. Looks like this years (mainly) clean Tour will be an anomaly.

[pedex]

Another excellent blog (http://cyclingfansanonymous.blogspot.com/) on doping and cycling itself.

Just from glancing though it I have learned much.

Valverde? Doper.

Cunego? Doper.

Kloden? Doper.

Di Luca? Doper.

Armstrong? Doper.

Moreau? Doper.

Contador? Doper.

etc

read all the cycling books including the ones by Armstrong and Landis

Armstrong even at one point admitted to doping but it never got past about halfway thru the trial just like all the cases he has been involved in, they were settled. The parts of the tailwind sports trial he was involved in were interesting to say the least though.

Until the team owners, soigneurs, director sportiff's, and riders that dope and promote doping are purged this isn't gonna go away and it goes right to the top. The politics and performance of USADA, WADA and the UCI are also atrocious and that's being nice about it.

the riders themselves have basically no rights or course of redress in practice, this is very well laid out in Landis' book..........you can easily be denied pay and it does happen quite frequently, there are lots of very unscrupulous teams out there

[Missouri Mule]

read all the cycling books including the ones by Armstrong and Landis

Armstrong even at one point admitted to doping but it never got past about halfway thru the trial just like all the cases he has been involved in, they were settled. The parts of the tailwind sports trial he was involved in were interesting to say the least though.

Until the team owners, soigneurs, director sportiff's, and riders that dope and promote doping are purged this isn't gonna go away and it goes right to the top. The politics and performance of USADA, WADA and the UCI are also atrocious and that's being nice about it.

the riders themselves have basically no rights or course of redress in practice, this is very well laid out in Landis' book..........you can easily be denied pay and it does happen quite frequently, there are lots of very unscrupulous teams out there

Would you kindly link me to something where Armstrong admits to doping?

[Turenne]

Basically I keep having the nightmare where Basso, Rassmuseen, Landis nd Asyana are allowed to ride in next years tour. Apparently people have been complaining that there hasn;'t been eough attacking ala Armstrong - suvh peopele shuold be strung up by their testicles.

Beyond that, ocmeon CARLOS!

[Missouri Mule]

Since the allegation of Armstrong's alleged admission of doping has been unsubstantiated I would like to address that directly.

He did in fact use a form of EPO in his cancer therapy. That is not news. And it may have saved his life. We have the recent alleged positive from 1999 but the protocol that was used violated about every imaginable standard of fairness and seemingly has died on the vine. I would address it this way.

If doping was widely used during the Tour by most riders as seems quite possible, and if Armstrong was using EPO, the fact is that he blew everyone else out of the tour including Ulrich, a known doper, and a suspected doper, Basso and for that matter everyone else who was remotely a threat to his winning. If all of the top riders were dopers and he was a doper then he was competing on a level playing field because no one else was even close to beating him. That's an established fact.

Now he flatly denies it and was tested many times and found to be clean. No proof has been presented to establish otherwise. We may never know. But one thing is for certain. He won seven consecutive titles in which he was without any question the class of the field. He also came with a team that was well disciplined and he was the undisputed leader of the team and they were there for one reason and that was to get him to the finish line in first place. Hencapie still races and to my knowledge has never been connected to doping and if anyone would know if Armstrong doped, he would certainly be privy to that information. And it is also noteworthy that Hencapie's current team has had a very successful tour.

So I ask again, show me the proof. Show me the admission of doping. I don't see it.

[pedex]

So when Armstrong is in the hospital getting examined for his cancer and admits to the doctor when asked that he has taken performance enhancing drugs and has witnesses there that heard him say it then it doesn't mean anything?

seriously mule, like I said earlier in this thread, you don't know much about bike racing

read the books, do the research, heck even do some bike racing yourself, I do

oh and btw one of the witnesses was Frankie Andreau, do you know who that is?

then when your done with that, start comparing Armstrong's performances prior to 1999 then after 1999

oh and as far as Armstrong "blowing everyone away", that is incorrect too, did Basso hang right there with Armstrong on the mountains or not? seems to me they had not one but two stages where they finished right together---and Basso is an admitted doper

you don't put out 500+ watts for a long time when you weigh 165lbs, not with a VO2max well under 90

[pedex]

here, start with these:

http://www.amazon.com/Lance-Landis-Inside-American-Controversy/dp/034549962X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1217076607&sr=1-1

http://www.amazon.com/Positively-False-Real-Story-France/dp/1416950230/ref=sr_1_12?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1217076607&sr=1-12

http://www.amazon.com/Lance-Armstrongs-War-Against-Scandal/dp/0060734973/ref=sr_1_14?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1217076667&sr=1-14

the radio interviews with Betsy Andreau are around here buried in 2TB of data somewhere, Im looking for them now

Armstrong's admission of guilt is in the first one(book above), also part of the tailwind sports trial is about that as well.

you might wanna take some better looks at pictures of Armstrong over the years too LOL, his "medical program" shows

then there's Tyler Hamilton, that fool was warned not once but THREE times by USADA/WADA about his EPO usage and he still kept on using it so they busted him for it--good friends with Armstrong and shared a villa in Spain, imagine that

I warn you though, read these books at your own peril, they will ruin bike racing for you.

[Turenne]

So Carlos has done it, beating Evans by a minute. Congrats to the little Spaniard. :)

[Missouri Mule]

So when Armstrong is in the hospital getting examined for his cancer and admits to the doctor when asked that he has taken performance enhancing drugs and has witnesses there that heard him say it then it doesn't mean anything?

seriously mule, like I said earlier in this thread, you don't know much about bike racing

read the books, do the research, heck even do some bike racing yourself, I do

oh and btw one of the witnesses was Frankie Andreau, do you know who that is?

then when your done with that, start comparing Armstrong's performances prior to 1999 then after 1999

oh and as far as Armstrong "blowing everyone away", that is incorrect too, did Basso hang right there with Armstrong on the mountains or not? seems to me they had not one but two stages where they finished right together---and Basso is an admitted doper

you don't put out 500+ watts for a long time when you weigh 165lbs, not with a VO2max well under 90

The EPO that Armstrong took in the hospital was for the purpose of enhancing his cancern treatment. Did you bother reading what I wrote?

Basso never seriously threatened Armstrong's dominance and the time that Basso won in the mountains it was obvious Armstrong let Basso win one of those stages as it wasn't really contested. I've seen the tapes.

In my view you are trying to be argumentative and I'm not particularly interested in trading insults.

If there was any substantive drug proof on Armstrong it would have come out during his seven tour wins. This is all a lot of rumor mongering by those who don't want to come to terms with his dominance and team organization that was vastly superior to the rest. As can be seen by CSC team's dominance this year it obviously affected Satre's win and Cadel's downfall.

When you have the proof of this alleged doping, let me know. I'm not interested in rehashing of sour grapes.

[Missouri Mule]

So Carlos has done it, beating Evans by a minute. Congrats to the little Spaniard. :)

I think it has been definitively established that without a team behind the team leader he is highly unlikely to win the tour. Evans just didn't have the horses to pull him over the mountain stages and Sastre did.

But this is not to take anything away from Sastre. He faced up to the challenge and met it. Evans just didn't have anything left to give it. That Kohl is going to be a real force in the future as will Andy Schleck. The torch is being passed to a new generation.

I will probably see the final stage on my DVR as I really don't enjoy the last stage since it can't change anything short of a bolt of lightning out of the blue. I wish they would change that so it is a race to the finish but I guess this is one tradition they intend to maintain although I believe it is wrong.

[Turenne]

I agree with your teams remarks (Cancellara and Voigt are cycling Gods imo) although Sastre was the more aggressive, the better climber and peaked at the perfect time as well. He deserves it more definetly.

Bring on next year! The likes of Contador and Levi will be back, should be fun, although I have a feeling Alberto is Lance the second.

[pedex]

The EPO that Armstrong took in the hospital was for the purpose of enhancing his cancern treatment. Did you bother reading what I wrote?


no, before that, sheesh

When Armstrong was being examined for cancer, before ANY treatment ever even happened he was asked by a doctor if he had taken performance enhancing drugs and he said yes and listed a few. Witnesses there included Betsy and Frankie Andreau.

dude, look up Frankie Andreau and his relationship to Armstrong and Andreau's racing career, then look up the tailwind sports trial

secondly, read the first book, everything you wanna know about doping is in there

[Dangerrmouse]

If Evans needs a team to support him, then acting as a member of that team could only help him. Sharing the team bus instead of having his personal van, for one thing, and what does he need a bodyguard for? It's not as if he has won the tour before. He's behaving as if he were Armstrong, but without the achievements. Like disappearing after the stage and not facing the press...
How bad must it be for Schleck to be caught by his team-mate Sastre during the TT? Having a bad day, mixed with seeing your team captain win...mixed emotions or what?

[Turenne]

Well that was always going to happen, the Schlecks can't TT. They need to work on that if they ever want to win.

My problem with Evans is that he wanted to TT his way to victoryrather then attack, and got caught for his conservatism.

[Missouri Mule]

no, before that, sheesh

When Armstrong was being examined for cancer, before ANY treatment ever even happened he was asked by a doctor if he had taken performance enhancing drugs and he said yes and listed a few. Witnesses there included Betsy and Frankie Andreau.

dude, look up Frankie Andreau and his relationship to Armstrong and Andreau's racing career, then look up the tailwind sports trial

secondly, read the first book, everything you wanna know about doping is in there

If that is true that was well before he won the seven tour titles. In any event there is no positive test and he was tested often. Give it a rest.

Give me the proof; not tales of someone's alleged memories which are nothing more than hearsay. That doesn't cut it.

[Missouri Mule]

If Evans needs a team to support him, then acting as a member of that team could only help him. Sharing the team bus instead of having his personal van, for one thing, and what does he need a bodyguard for? It's not as if he has won the tour before. He's behaving as if he were Armstrong, but without the achievements. Like disappearing after the stage and not facing the press...

How bad must it be for Schleck to be caught by his team-mate Sastre during the TT? Having a bad day, mixed with seeing your team captain win...mixed emotions or what?

It occurred to me although there is no way to establish this that Schleck could have sacrificed himself by putting in a half *** performance and permitting Sastre to catch him. He was in effect the "rabbit" that helped enable Sastre to improve his time.

What I find disturbing about your comments about Evans is that I don't know where exactly you are getting this information from. I have seen him interviewed and he seemed to be forthcoming. If he viewed himself as above his own team members then obviously he contributed to his own downfall. But clearly, he did not have the team. Only Popovych was capable of assisting him up the mountains and then CSC just beat the hell out of him with the stops, starts, attacks and all the rest and he couldn't maintain a steady cadence. Meanwhile Sastre broke free and built up his insurmountable lead. Evans was just there by himself and didn't have any of the unbeatable acceleration and fast cadence that Armstrong could put out that would destroy his opponents.

It will be interesting next year to see what comes of the Schleck brothers and Kohl. Any of them could very easily win the Tour and this may be the last time that Evans has a genuine chance. If he does, he will have to have a better team; that's for sure.

[Missouri Mule]

I agree with your teams remarks (Cancellara and Voigt are cycling Gods imo) although Sastre was the more aggressive, the better climber and peaked at the perfect time as well. He deserves it more definetly.

Bring on next year! The likes of Contador and Levi will be back, should be fun, although I have a feeling Alberto is Lance the second.

Possibly but if he races clean he might not be. He of course was linked to last year's doping scandal but no proof. That was one of the reasons the Astana team was not invited. It was to send a very clear message.

They just have to make sure that these drugs are forever out of the sport. I've thought more about this and think that if they can't, or won't, ban someone for life, that a five year ban would be so severe and effectively derail their career they probably could not come back. A two year ban is just not long enough. Millar is back, and evidently drug free, but he was still young enough and good enough to be a major player in this year's event. The ban needs to be for a longer period of time.

[Turenne]

There will, for better or worse, be a lot of big riders back next year. Contador, Leipheimer, Basso, Kloden etc plus Sastre, Perriero, Menchov, F Schleck plus the young guns like Kohl, A Schleck, Kruiziger etc. And there are rumours that Evans will not even be with Lotto next year, and will move to the new Russian team. Those who attack and are aggressive tend to win the Tour, and Evans was/did neither.

BTW Gusev was kicked off the Astana team for doping. Good sign imo.

When is the Veulta kicking off?

[Missouri Mule]

There will, for better or worse, be a lot of big riders back next year. Contador, Leipheimer, Basso, Kloden etc plus Sastre, Perriero, Menchov, F Schleck plus the young guns like Kohl, A Schleck, Kruiziger etc. And there are rumours that Evans will not even be with Lotto next year, and will move to the new Russian team. Those who attack and are aggressive tend to win the Tour, and Evans was/did neither.

BTW Gusev was kicked off the Astana team for doping. Good sign imo.

When is the Veulta kicking off?

Not sure. I don't know if Versus telecasts it here. Tell me about it.

How would Evans work with a new team? Who would his likely team members be? I doubt he would want to be a domestique.

[Turenne]

The final of the yearly Grand Tours, the Vuelta de Espana? I think it starts mid-September, so check it out.

[Dangerrmouse]

August 30th, don't be late!

http://www.lavuelta.com/08/ingles/recorrido/index.asp

http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2008/vuelta08/

[quantumechanic]

In homage to George Carlin:
fuc* Lance Armstrong. fuc* him and his one ball and his bicycles and his steroids and his yellow shirts and the dumb, empty expression on his face ... I'll choose my own heroes, thank you very much.

[Turenne]

Will Astana be at the Veulta?

[Turenne]

Fofonov guilty of doping btw.

[Missouri Mule]

The final of the yearly Grand Tours, the Vuelta de Espana? I think it starts mid-September, so check it out.

Thanks. I programed my DVR to pick up any cycling events but don't know offhand if this is on the schedule.

BTW, I did hear today about the Russian cycling team mentioned on Versus today. Do you have any details?

[Turenne]

Thanks. I programed my DVR to pick up any cycling events but don't know offhand if this is on the schedule.

BTW, I did hear today about the Russian cycling team mentioned on Versus today. Do you have any details?

Read this. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tinkoff_Credit_Systems)

[Missouri Mule]

Read this. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tinkoff_Credit_Systems)

Thanks, have you ever heard of any of these guys? I can't say I have ever seen any of their names before?

[Turenne]

I understand that they have signed McEwen, and have been rumoured to want to sign Evans and I believe Cancellara turned down an offer of theirs as well. Obviously they have plenty of cash and want to create a world class team.

This kind of thing is happening all over European sports, particurly in soccer, where non-European billionaries pour their money into our sport, sometimes purely as a hobby or for prestige. Something simililarly is happening with Cricket right now as well along with cycling and soccer. It reflects the enormous growth and potential financially of these sports imo.

[Missouri Mule]

Thanks. Keep me apprised as I want to stay on top of events. I see there was one final positive doping test but I think they have finally have gotten on top of the problem. I guess this problem is in part due to the relatively low pay given professional riders. Some of the lowly domestiques are paid as low as $40,000 per year so the temptation is great to cheat. Frank Schleck is only paid about $500,000 although Valverde was paid $4 million. Of course there are the commercial benefits depending on the notoriety of the rider.

[Turenne]

I'm inclined to think the major problem re: doping is just how difficult these grand tours are, its a couple of thousand miles over three weeks with 5-6 absolutely brutal mountain stages thrown in, about as painful as anything in any sport. Add in the notorius way cyclists are treated, even team leaders, by management, and the pressure put on them to dope and to succeed in the 80's and 90's by everyone, and you can understand - not justify - why people dope. Plus many cyclists that come from the pyrenees, the alps, the basque country etc come from a poor upbringing and have nothing but cycling, no college degree or trade to fallback on. One moment they are seen as the finest cyclists in the world, have all the money and are treated like Gods, the next they test positive and their whole world is gone. Just look at what happened to Pantani.

I think its clear that most riders are getting the message - its blatantly clear that the ones who are not getting caught, are at last trying to race clean(as you can see from Valverde and Cunego this year). Of course there are idiots like Ricco, who apparently was a simpleton, and old dogs like Piepoli, Beltran, Fofonov who just refuse to change, but I think one can be confident that people like Sastre, Evans, Vandevelde are clean (thats not to say they were in the early 00's of course). Its a matter of, just like with political and economic corruption, getting it from a systemic problem to an individual one.

I'm inclined to think when we see Basso back next year, he will go the route of Cunego or Moreau this year, which is a positive enough sign.

[Turenne]

MM, you might find The Death of Marco Pantini (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0753822032) to be interesting reading. Supposed to be a brilliant and emotional book.

[pedex]

I'm inclined to think the major problem re: doping is just how difficult these grand tours are, its a couple of thousand miles over three weeks with 5-6 absolutely brutal mountain stages thrown in, about as painful as anything in any sport. Add in the notorius way cyclists are treated, even team leaders, by management, and the pressure put on them to dope and to succeed in the 80's and 90's by everyone, and you can understand - not justify - why people dope. Plus many cyclists that come from the pyrenees, the alps, the basque country etc come from a poor upbringing and have nothing but cycling, no college degree or trade to fallback on. One moment they are seen as the finest cyclists in the world, have all the money and are treated like Gods, the next they test positive and their whole world is gone. Just look at what happened to Pantani.

I think its clear that most riders are getting the message - its blatantly clear that the ones who are not getting caught, are at last trying to race clean(as you can see from Valverde and Cunego this year). Of course there are idiots like Ricco, who apparently was a simpleton, and old dogs like Piepoli, Beltran, Fofonov who just refuse to change, but I think one can be confident that people like Sastre, Evans, Vandevelde are clean (thats not to say they were in the early 00's of course). Its a matter of, just like with political and economic corruption, getting it from a systemic problem to an individual one.

I'm inclined to think when we see Basso back next year, he will go the route of Cunego or Moreau this year, which is a positive enough sign.

if you look up Frankie Andreau among others there was a time when many teams doped the riders without even telling them

then there are others like Hamilton and Armstrong that went out and found themselves their own doping doctors and then spent big $$ to get results

one has to ask themselves, why does each team have a doctor? why do teams have centrifuges? how can a rider's hemacrit go UP during a tour along with their testosterone levels?

they can test for foreign drugs that is for certain, they cannot stop the blood packing though, nor can they get the politics and unethical behavior of the organizations involved out without getting all these people out of racing entirely

[pedex]

MM, you might find The Death of Marco Pantini (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0753822032) to be interesting reading. Supposed to be a brilliant and emotional book.

it is, well worth the read

[pedex]

Thanks. Keep me apprised as I want to stay on top of events. I see there was one final positive doping test but I think they have finally have gotten on top of the problem. I guess this problem is in part due to the relatively low pay given professional riders. Some of the lowly domestiques are paid as low as $40,000 per year so the temptation is great to cheat. Frank Schleck is only paid about $500,000 althoug