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Lumpen Prole
11-18-2008, 07:36 PM
Scientists who gathered at the Vatican last week for a closed-door conference* on evolutionary origins are giving the event mixed reviews. Those who hoped for a clear statement of support for evolution from the Catholic Church went home empty-handed. Others, expecting little, were happy with a détente between science and faith. But a few criticize what they heard from the Vatican's controversial point man on evolution, Austrian Cardinal Christoph Schönborn. "He believes there are gaps in evolution and [that] God acts in those gaps," says John Abelson, a molecular biologist at the University of California, Davis, who gave a talk at the meeting. This is a "nearly 19th century" view, Abelson says, amounting to support for the intelligent design movement. Pope Benedict XVI did not clarify his own ambiguous statements on evolution.

The meeting was organized by the Pontifical Academy of Sciences, an international group of scientists who advise the pope. Astrophysicist Stephen Hawking of the University of Cambridge in the U.K., Nobel Prize-winning biochemist Marshall Nirenberg, and others gave lectures on the origins of everything from galaxies in the early universe to cellular life on Earth. It was like many scientific conferences except that the pope showed up to bless the proceedings, and the first talk, titled "The Reflections of Joseph Ratzinger Pope Benedict XVI on Evolution," was given by Schönborn, a theologian.

Schönborn first came to scientists' attention 3 years ago when he penned an editorial in The New York Times shortly after the new pope's election that openly supported intelligent design (Science, 12 August 2005, p. 996). "Evolution in the sense of common ancestry might be true," the Vienna archbishop wrote, "but evolution in the neo-Darwinian sense--an unguided, unplanned process of random variation and natural selection--is not."

Schönborn's prepared talk at the conference was not the source of controversy. "It was so very abstract," says Gereon Wolters, a philosopher of science at the University of Konstanz, Germany. "It offered the standard view that evolution is okay" but that "evolutionism"--a term used by religious conservatives for the promotion of atheism through evolutionary biology--"is not." Some scientists even saw signs of progress in the talk. "I was relieved to hear the cardinal clearly distancing himself from intelligent design," says Francis Collins, former director of the U.S. National Human Genome Research Institute in Bethesda, Maryland, "referring to that 'school' as having made mistakes."

The sparks flew when the cardinal fielded questions. "He still expressed reservations about whether evolution can account for all aspects of biology," says Collins, including whether Darwinian evolution can account for the generation of species. "It was preposterous," says Abelson, who says that the meeting took " a step backwards" in the church's relationship with science. Wolters was disappointed, too: "Schönborn has the same intention as the pope has--to fight evolutionism," he says, but "he is just repeating this creationist gibberish" used by U.S. proponents of intelligent design. Wolters adds: "Fighting science in this way is a losing game."

Other scientists at the meeting disagree. The cardinal's doubts about evolution do not represent a conflict between the church and science, says Werner Arber, a geneticist at the University of Basel, Switzerland, who co-organized the meeting. "Relations continue to be good." Schönborn gave "a confused lecture," says Peter Raven, director of the Missouri Botanical Garden in St. Louis and a member of the academy, but "the church's position on evolution, insofar as it can be said to have one, is unchanged. … There is a belief in a creator who existed before the big bang and set the universe in motion, which is something that cannot be proved or disproved by science."

http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/sci;322/5904/1038

AgentM
11-18-2008, 07:40 PM
Vatican Science Conference...isn't that an oxymoron? :sorry:

Winnb
11-18-2008, 07:43 PM
I sincerely hope the Catholic Church continues to refuse to adapt and grow. They'll go the way of the Dodo bird.

Ethos
11-18-2008, 07:43 PM
It's fascinating to me watching fundamentalists abandoning literalist views of their Bible when accepted science makes them inconvenient.

What happened to faith?

Mirror Lake 444
11-18-2008, 07:56 PM
Vatican Science Conference...isn't that an oxymoron? :sorry:

Actually in modern times the Catholic church is much more open minded than some others. Some of our priests actually hold science degrees. I know of a few that were great astronomers.

AgentM
11-18-2008, 07:59 PM
Actually in modern times the Catholic church is much more open minded than some others. Some of our priests actually hold science degrees. I know of a few that were great astronomers.

Interesting. That's a start at least.

Mirror Lake 444
11-18-2008, 07:59 PM
I sincerely hope the Catholic Church continues to refuse to adapt and grow. They'll go the way of the Dodo bird.

I'm ready to stop going to mass. I have nothing against a dedicated priest from Africa, Mexico, or Columbia, but is it too much to ask for them to speak in clear English? Our latest is a super nice dedicated priest from Columbia, but I don't have a clue to what he is saying in the Homily. As long as they don't allow priests to marry or women in the priesthood a shortage of priests will continue.

Winnb
11-18-2008, 08:10 PM
I'm ready to stop going to mass. I have nothing against a dedicated priest from Africa, Mexico, or Columbia, but is it too much to ask for them to speak in clear English? Our latest is a super nice dedicated priest from Columbia, but I don't have a clue to what he is saying in the Homily. As long as they don't allow priests to marry or women in the priesthood a shortage of priests will continue.

Exactly. And I shouldn't come off sounding so mean like I did in my original statement (you put it in a much nicer way), but I'd like to see the Church adapt more to modern times.

Things like not allowing priests to marry is just silly imo. Denying evolution? Not allowing birth control except what, the rhythm method? Good grief.

Groucho
11-18-2008, 11:38 PM
I thought the Catholic Church had accepted evolution years ago, didn't they?

steveksux
11-19-2008, 02:51 AM
I thought the Catholic Church had accepted evolution years ago, didn't they?I think that was the old Pope. New Pope, not so much.

Apparently only current Popes are infallible... :lol: The exes.... not so much.

Randy

gopman
11-19-2008, 03:39 PM
The Pope is only considered infallible when speaking "ex cathedra," i.e. officially on spiritual matters. I'm not sure if there's been an ex cathedra statement on evolution. There has not been one on birth control, priest gender or priest celibacy. I would be surprised if all of those don't change during our lifetimes.

Mirror Lake 444
11-19-2008, 05:17 PM
The Pope is only considered infallible when speaking "ex cathedra," i.e. officially on spiritual matters. I'm not sure if there's been an ex cathedra statement on evolution. There has not been one on birth control, priest gender or priest celibacy. I would be surprised if all of those don't change during our lifetimes.

Things need to change or the Catholic church won't survive. I know they've pretty much lost me. I used to be heavily involved in the church as in church counsel and other duties but I'm disillusioned now.

AgentM
11-19-2008, 09:03 PM
From what I've read they're even losing South Americans in droves, many of whom are converting to fundamentalist sects.

Atticus
11-19-2008, 09:10 PM
It's fascinating to me watching fundamentalists abandoning literalist views of their Bible when accepted science makes them inconvenient.

What happened to faith?The Catholic Church isn't fundamentalist. In fact, people who call themselves fundamentalists tend to say that Catholics aren't Christians. The intellectual traditions of Catholicism are much stronger than more fundamentalist sects like Baptism or Assemblies of God or the Church of Christ. Those churches are, to a significant degree, deliberately anti-intellectual.

Winnb
11-19-2008, 10:06 PM
The Catholic Church isn't fundamentalist. In fact, people who call themselves fundamentalists tend to say that Catholics aren't Christians. The intellectual traditions of Catholicism are much stronger than more fundamentalist sects like Baptism or Assemblies of God or the Church of Christ. Those churches are, to a significant degree, deliberately anti-intellectual.

This is exactly why I should stay out of discussions involving religion. They're all crazy. :shrug:

The religions I mean.