Is there a god?

[CyNix]

Is there a god?
1. Yes
2. No
If so, what type of god is he?

[NetxMan]

What type? I think the Bible pretty much explains that.

[JD3]

Originally posted by NetxMan
What type? I think the Bible pretty much explains that.

Yes, but bigger. I think when I look at the world God reached different peoples in different ways. The overwhelming message during the age of enlightenment was to heed compassion. We must try to do for others and make the world a better place.

I guess I am just open to the idea that God reached the world in more than one way. One God, many paths.

I hope that sounds the way I mean it.

:angel:

[CyNix]

What do you mean? Islam, and Christianity, and Hinduism, and Zoroasterism ect... can't all point to the same god. They all point to different directions.

[up2date]

Originally posted by CyNix
What do you mean? Islam, and Christianity, and Hinduism, and Zoroasterism ect... can't all point to the same god. They all point to different directions. Actually, Islam, Judeaism and Christianity all point to the same God.

[CyNix]

Christianity says Jesus was God, and the Son of God, part of a trinity. Islam says that Jesus was only a prophet of God, not God Himself. These are only some of the many differences. Read the Quaran, then read the Bible. If these religions believed in the same god, they would also share beliefs about the words of that god. They don't.

[up2date]

I am no theologian, but I have read parts of the Torah, Bible and Koran. Yes, there are lots of differences, some subtle, some great. Muslims believe Jesus was prophet, but God is the same, minus the trinity. There are all kinds of differences we could point out, but in each case the God is related.

[gopman]

The Pope asserts that all religions can ultimately lead to God. Christianity, Judaism, and Islam all believe in the same God, but Christians believe that he took the form of Jesus and continues to take the form of the Holy Spirit. It is all one entity.

[up2date]

Originally posted by gopman
The Pope asserts that all religions can ultimately lead to God. Christianity, Judaism, and Islam all believe in the same God, but Christians believe that he took the form of Jesus and continues to take the form of the Holy Spirit. It is all one entity. You said it better than I, gopman.

[CyNix]

Are you saying that I can joint any religion, cult, or religious movement and still find god? Isn't that a little vauge? How would I know god if I did find him?

[Blueangel]

I can't vote.
There isn't a 'Don't know' option.

[JD3]

Originally posted by CyNix
Are you saying that I can joint any religion, cult, or religious movement and still find god? Isn't that a little vauge? How would I know god if I did find him?

U2D and gopman expressed my opinion pretty well, but I wouldn't say any "cult" will do. Not by a long shot. I suspect any group that prefers you not to think is probably not a wise group to join. Jonestown and Waco are examples of movemenmts that lacked some logic.

Still, if we look at the age of enlightenment, something I heard about in world religions many years ago, within a certain span much of the world had leaders rise who taught ways of living and behaving that was more peaceful and civil than before. This may well be how God reached all of us.

Truth, I have no idea. I do know that the three -- Chritians, Jews, and Muslims -- all worship the same God in a different way. Now I don't rule out the possiblity that is because we messed it up, but I also don't rule out that it may be bigger than a narrow concept. Those that teach compassion and encourage a standard of living that betters the world are worth giving the benefit of the doubt.

[Vic]

also think there´s an option missing in this poll, the "don´t care" option.

Me as an agnostic, i dont care if there´s a god or not.

[Blueangel]

Yeah!
Can we have a 'Don't know and/or Don't care' option please?

[NetxMan]

Originally posted by Vic
also think there´s an option missing in this poll, the "don´t care" option.

Me as an agnostic, i dont care if there´s a god or not.

Do you "not care", or do you believe there isn't?

I can "not care" if there is a president or not, but that doesn't mean I don't acknowledge the existence of one.

[Captain America]

God is like santa Clause for adults.

I do think that in this vast universe there HAS to be a being/beings that are superior than us and lesser than us. But "God" as we humans percieve Him/Her/It to be, in my opinion, is religious gobbly-de-gook.

[Simon666]

There is no God.

[NetxMan]

How can you say that and walk outside and look at the sky? Or yourself and how you function? Or your children and how life is born?

I don't want to turn this into a flame war at all, but I really don't understand how you can say there is no god, no greater being? What is your theory on how everything came to be?

[KWJams]

Originally posted by Simon666
There is no God.

Then that would mean there is no satan ;)

Creation is not a act of random elements bumping into each other.

Differences in understanding begin, when one group claims a monopoly on believing.

[KWJams]

Originally posted by CyNix
Is there a god?
1. Yes
2. No
If so, what type of god is he?

CyNix,
I hope that it is ok with you that I added "Don't know" and "Don't care " to your poll

I probably should add another option for some --- "Hope not" :eek:

I think there are many who hope there is not going to be a final judgment on their actions. ;)

[NetxMan]

You are probably right, that is the way a lot of people live there life now.

[up2date]

Originally posted by NetxMan
How can you say that and walk outside and look at the sky? Or yourself and how you function? Or your children and how life is born?

I don't want to turn this into a flame war at all, but I really don't understand how you can say there is no god, no greater being? What is your theory on how everything came to be? I of course studied evolution in school. And after school I studied it again for programming - evolution inspired some incredible ideas for algorithms, but that's another topic.

I am not saying you have to believe in either evolution or God, but studying evolution for computational purposes really put me in awe of the power or evolution. It could easily explain such things as you mention in your post. I am not saying evolution is proof that there is no God. I personally believe there is. I just don't think the complexity of life is itself proof that there is a God.

[CyNix]

KWJams,
Thank you. I should have thought of those options when I first put the poll up. Please add a "I Hope Not".

[CyNix]

Personally I believe in the God of the Bible, The same God of the Jews. I do not share some peoples opinion that this is the god of the Koran also (as I stated above). I believe that this God has created one path, not many. That would seem very confusing. All men are failures. But, because of the grace of God, we do not need to be held accountable for these failures

[gopman]

Could a computer create those algorithms on its own?

[up2date]

Originally posted by gopman
Could a computer create those algorithms on its own? A computer is just a tool. But I can create an environment with no "instructions" and allow "solutions" to evolve completely on their own.

I will admit evolution does not explain how life began, but starting from those basic ingredients I can have a system that evolves "naturally." I of course have never created anything nearly as complex as our ecosystem. But theoretically if we had all the variables and computing power it could be done.

[gopman]

Could a computer simulate free will accurately? I have very limited experience with them, but I do know that even random number generators aren't perfectly random. Of course, this raises the question of whether we have free will. Certainly God could create that if he wanted, and certainly if there is a God, then freewill exists if only with him.

[NetxMan]

Originally posted by up2date
I of course studied evolution in school. And after school I studied it again for programming - evolution inspired some incredible ideas for algorithms, but that's another topic.

I am not saying you have to believe in either evolution or God, but studying evolution for computational purposes really put me in awe of the power or evolution. It could easily explain such things as you mention in your post. I am not saying evolution is proof that there is no God. I personally believe there is. I just don't think the complexity of life is itself proof that there is a God.

I don't think you can get that complexity any other way. Of course we can I think, I think all day long. But honestly belief of a God comes down to Faith. And having faith in anything at all isn't easy.

[gopman]

It's easier when there's no alternative in sight.

[PatriotChick]

I'm an Atheist, so of course I don't believe in a god.

[up2date]

Originally posted by gopman
Could a computer simulate free will accurately? I have very limited experience with them, but I do know that even random number generators aren't perfectly random. Of course, this raises the question of whether we have free will. Certainly God could create that if he wanted, and certainly if there is a God, then freewill exists if only with him. Random number generators are really pseudo random number generators. And no, I don't think a computer could create free will. But than that would require a definition of free will, and I already have a headache. :confused:

Just to be clear, today's most powerful super computers can barely handle the weather, so they're nowhere near close to evolution, and they probably never will be.Originally posted by NetxMan
I don't think you can get that complexity any other way. Of course we can I think, I think all day long. But honestly belief of a God comes down to Faith. And having faith in anything at all isn't easy. I have a tremendous amount of respect for the power of evolution and its ability to find solutions. But you're right, it all comes down to faith. Personally, I believe all the complexity around us can be explained through evolutionary theory, but that and God aren't mutually exclusive.

[gopman]

"I already have a headache"

My thoughts exactly.

[cpwill]

the best answer, i've always found, is the simple one.

"does God exist?"

well, He seemed quite sure of it last time we met.

once you begin to develop your relationship with God, all theology, all science, all of the stuff that makes your head spin becomes so secondary that you often find you don't even care for it anymore.

[Duo_Maxwell]

Man's unfailing capacity to believe what he perfers to be true, rather than what the evidence shows to be likely and possible, has always astounded me. We long for a caring universe to save us from our childish mistakes, and in the face of the mountains of evidence to the contrary, we will pin all our hopes on the slimest of doubts. God has not be proven not to exist, therefore he must exist! -- Academician Prokhor Zakharov, "For I Have Tasted The Fruit"

One of the best quotes from the award winning game, Alpha Centauri.

As much as that is true, I would like to believe there is SOMETHING up there. Not necessarily a "God," but perhaps the 3 fates simply watching.

[Simon666]

Originally posted by NetxMan
How can you say that and walk outside and look at the sky? Or yourself and how you function? Or your children and how life is born? I don't want to turn this into a flame war at all, but I really don't understand how you can say there is no god, no greater being? What is your theory on how everything came to be?
Science can account for all of it. Maybe you will notice it hasn't just yet, but it can and already has for many things, like those you mention. And by the way, beauty like many other concepts is just an impression of your brain and no argument for a God. To some, the birth of a child may be beautiful, to others, it may be a blood fest of pain equivalent to Alien, where the alien comes ripping through your chest, but even more painful as it rips through your genitals. I suspect I will be called names or a sicko for this.

[Simon666]

Originally posted by KWJams
Then that would mean there is no satan ;) Creation is not a act of random elements bumping into each other. Differences in understanding begin, when one group claims a monopoly on believing.
There is no Satan either, although I know some people who would qualify. Creation is a matter of random occurences, no God has so far been needed to explain anything in nature. And there may be differences in understanding, but some understandings are just plain wrong. I think this is yours that there is a God, you think it is mine there is none. Only way to find out is if you die, and what a shame it would be if you have restricted your own freedoms and those of others because of some invisible man that doesn't exist.

[Simon666]

Originally posted by cpwill
the best answer, i've always found, is the simple one. "does God exist?" well, He seemed quite sure of it last time we met.

once you begin to develop your relationship with God, all theology, all science, all of the stuff that makes your head spin becomes so secondary that you often find you don't even care for it anymore.
Well this is getting freaky. That's not an answer. So you had a meeting with God, and you apparently know he exist instead of stating more correctly you believe he exist. Over here in Belgium we say only fools have absolute certainty, and you seem absolute certain there is a God as you know he exists as you met him.

So tell me, what does this gawd of yours look like? What does he feels like? And more interesting, what does he tell you to do? This last one ought to be a pretty interesting question for the doctors who should study people thinking they met God in a psychiatric institution.

[gopman]

So if there are random occurences, do you agree that there is free will?

[Simon666]

That's another discussion.

[CyNix]

Originally posted by Simon666
Well this is getting freaky. That's not an answer. So you had a meeting with God, and you apparently know he exist instead of stating more correctly you believe he exist. Over here in Belgium we say only fools have absolute certainty, and you seem absolute certain there is a God as you know he exists as you met him.

So tell me, what does this gawd of yours look like? What does he feels like? And more interesting, what does he tell you to do? This last one ought to be a pretty interesting question for the doctors who should study people thinking they met God in a psychiatric institution.

So, because you don't understand somthing, does that mean that is not real? Who can claim to understand all that there is to understand? I believe in the God of the Bible, and I have spoken to him as well. This god is not one of those "guy-in-the-sky, santa for adults, crutch for the weak" type deals. He does exist.
I feal bad for the athiest, who believes he was created by accident, (Big Band) and has a life with no purpose. Life: Cradle to Grave.

cpwill: what do you believe? :thinking:

[cpwill]

Originally posted by Simon666
Well this is getting freaky. That's not an answer. So you had a meeting with God, and you apparently know he exist instead of stating more correctly you believe he exist. Over here in Belgium we say only fools have absolute certainty, and you seem absolute certain there is a God as you know he exists as you met him.

So tell me, what does this gawd of yours look like? What does he feels like? And more interesting, what does he tell you to do? This last one ought to be a pretty interesting question for the doctors who should study people thinking they met God in a psychiatric institution.


sorry to freak you out;). and yes, it is an answer. i have met God, have had conversations with Him, have listened to His voice, and have felt His prescence. i believe things ABOUT God. for example, i believe that God has given us free will in the choice over whether or not to accept his grace, and i have my own theology etc. etc.
however, i don't necessarily believe in God, i know he exists just as surely as you know that your best friend exists.

what does God look like? (snorts) if you think that human eyes have the visual capacity to take in God then you have very limited idea of infinite.;) what does God feel like? details on meetings with God can depend on the situation; but my most commonly felt emotion is joy and deep peace. what does He tell me? whatever the heck He wants to tell me. sometimes it's a specific action, sometimes it's something i need to start focusing on. would you like some specific instances?

CyNix. i believe that true atheism is impossible. this is due to the difficulty involved in proving a negative. if i were to say, for example "there is a roach in that house" then all i have to do is search the house until i find one roach and wal-lah, i've proven my point. if i want to say "there is no roach in that house", however, that means i have to have intimite knowledge of every square inch of that house, and Know for a Fact that not one of those square inches contains a roach.
same thing for God, if i want to say "there is a God", all i have to do is find an example where He has been shown. however, if i want to say "there is no God" then that means that i have to have intimite knowledge of every bit of existance. unfortunately, by definition, having intimite knowledge of every bit of existance would make me God. so the statement "there is no God" truly means "i am God" but if you are God, then obviously you exist.

[Simon666]

Spoken with God with God both of you? And what did he tell? :rolleyes:

I tell you what, you think God is present and you think he tells you to take a certain action or start looking at something which is just a product of your mind as you would have taken that action with or without "God" anyway. That doesn't mean God exists as this feeling of his presence is just a product of your mind that is the result of your religious education or what you have read about religion.

I do not know 100% sure God doesn't exist, but I'm fairly confident he doesn't. You seem 100% confident he does. There is a saying in Belgium that says only fools have aboslute certainty. That is telling. And why the hell are we referring to God as "He"? This is another product of your religious education and/or what you've read about religion. Do you really believe God is a man and do you think women are worth less as that is literally in the Bible?

[cpwill]

Originally posted by Simon666
Spoken with God with God both of you? And what did he tell? :rolleyes:

you want specific situations?

I tell you what, you think God is present and you think he tells you to take a certain action or start looking at something which is just a product of your mind as you would have taken that action with or without "God" anyway.

i thought about this too, but God has had me do things in the past that i most certainly did not want to do, as well as things that i never would have thought of. the idea that all of this, therefore, is simply springing from my uncoscious is untrue because some of it is stuff that does not exist within my unconscious.

I do not know 100% sure God doesn't exist, but I'm fairly confident he doesn't. You seem 100% confident he does. There is a saying in Belgium that says only fools have aboslute certainty. That is telling. And why the hell are we referring to God as "He"? This is another product of your religious education and/or what you've read about religion. Do you really believe God is a man and do you think women are worth less as that is literally in the Bible?

how confident are you that your mother exists? are you sure? how about 100%?

i refer to God as He because that is the traditional way of doing it. God, however, is in no way limited by something so worldly and small as gender.

[Simon666]

I can see my mother, speak to her, touch her, feel her with my physical senses, without resulting only to feeling, believing, or thinking she is there. She is material and her existance can be confirmed and proven by any and all sane persons. Nothing of which is possible for your God.

I've already been asked not to push it and to attack people's faiths. You can believe what you want as far as I'm concerned, but to be 100% sure about God? That's fundamentalism. And God making you do things you do not want is really freaking me out, it reminds me of people who say they didn't want to murder anyone but the voices inside their head kept asking so. :eek:

[ranger]

I cannot see the air I breathe. I cannot speak to it. I cannot touch it or feel it with my physical senses. I must BELIEVE in it because it keeps me alive.

[Simon666]

Stand in front of one of these babies (http://www.atsb.gov.au/aviation/tech-rep/8-01/images/cover.jpg) when working and you will feel the air you breath. Be sure not to come out as hamburger ingredient at the other end. The existance of air is material and can be confirmed and proved by any and all sane persons. :rolleyes:

[ranger]

I admit I will feel suction if I stand in front of the turbine. Maybe thats what gravity is? Gravity is another thing we take on faith alone.

[Simon666]

Are we seriously going to discuss the existance of air? :rolleyes: I already said the existance of air is material and can be confirmed and proved by any and all sane persons. Perhaps you don't belong in that category. :rolleyes:

[ranger]

Because you say so??? Offer the proof!

[Simon666]

Actually, I might just leave it with this as already enough has been shown about you. But I just can't resist, it is tempting. I'm sure you have blown a bicycle tire once in your life. How could you do that when there is no air? What makes it stay inflated?

[america]

Originally posted by Simon666
Actually, I might just leave it with this as already enough has been shown about you. But I just can't resist, it is tempting. I'm sure you have blown a bicycle tire once in your life. How could you do that when there is no air? What makes it stay inflated?

faith needs no proof

[Voice Of Reason]

Yes there is a God and to believe that you have to have a thing called faith.....

Wouldn't it be a sad state if this was all there was?

[america]

Originally posted by Voice Of Reason
Yes there is a God and to believe that you have to have a thing called faith.....

Wouldn't it be a sad state if this was all there was? :confused:

[CyNix]

What I believe to be dangerous, is to be uncertain about if, and who God is. If, after death, I am wrong, I have lost nothing by believing in God, I am simply dead. If, after you die and you are right, there is no god, you have lost nothing either. But, what if you are wrong? I say, he who seeks the answer to this question, and finds it without doubt, is no fool.

[Animal]

I think it's amazing when people who don't believe in God talk about not wanting to be 'bound' by 'religion'. I can honestly say, before I knew who Jesus Christ really was, I was bound with chains I didn't even know I had. I thought I knew happiness and freedom, but I had no clue. I've never been happier and more free than I am right now. I know what peace is. I couldn't say that 20 years ago. That's MY experience and it cannot be refuted by anyone, because your not me. If it turns out that it was all 'in my head' and there is no God, then I will have lived a better, happier life believing there was.

As far as science proving all things, get a clue. Yes, science is one of the most important things humanity needs to thrive, but it hasn't even scratched the surface, and it certainly hasn't disproven the existance of God. Think of what science will accomplish in the next 100 years. They'll look at us as being just above the stone age.

I say to each his own. Live life to the fullest. If your comfortable with where you stand as a human being, more power to ya!

I know where I'm going, because I know where He's been.

[up2date]

Originally posted by Animal
I say to each his own. Live life to the fullest. If your comfortable with where you stand as a human being, more power to ya! Amen!

[america]

Originally posted by up2date
Amen!

ditto

[Simon666]

Originally posted by america
faith needs no proof
To the believers : indeed it doesn't. To the disbelievers : yes it does if you want to force your faith based agenda on them.

[Simon666]

Originally posted by Voice Of Reason
Wouldn't it be a sad state if this was all there was?
Get used to it. I did. :D Who says you need to be pessimist about life when you don't believe in an afterlife? Doesn't this sound more of an advertisement to live life to the fullest?

While as believer you're putting all sorts of restraints on you that you believe would please an invisible man/woman/whatever Wouldn't it be even more sad if you lived your life with a number of restrictions by some invisible deity when there was no afterlife? How could you say you are free?

[Dave]

Originally posted by Simon666
To the believers : indeed it doesn't. To the disbelievers : yes it does if you want to force your faith based agenda on them.


I want to start by saying the poll worries me. Not a good sign at all.

Simon, you use the #'s 666 after your name, which of course is the sign of the beast. You state you worship the evil one. This would mean you have read and fully understand the fact of an ultimate evil. Just as you have read about the ultimate good. Ultimate evil--- Satan, devil, luther or what ever other name you can think of. Ultimate good----God, lord, almighty, or any other name you can think of. The fact that you state you believe in half and not the other confuses me. How can that be? Every action has a complete opposite.(Good And Bad) Your belief in evil is a faith and belief in God is a faith. Proof is not needed in either case. Faith meaning: Trust. How can one prove trust? You either have or you don't.

I would like to point out in every story of Good and Evil, Good always wins, but it's your choice.

[Simon666]

:rofl:

You don't seriously think I worship Satan? That's just a heavy metal gimmick. My signature is part of an Iron Maiden (http://www.lyricsfreak.com/i/iron-maiden/68050.html) song.

[america]

Originally posted by Simon666
:rofl:

You don't seriously think I worship Satan? That's just a heavy metal gimmick. My signature is part of an Iron Maiden (http://www.lyricsfreak.com/i/iron-maiden/68050.html) song. :mad: :eek:
oh no and I already turned you in to the Scott Peterson defense team.
sorry.

[Dave]

Originally posted by Simon666
:rofl:

You don't seriously think I worship Satan? That's just a heavy metal gimmick. My signature is part of an Iron Maiden (http://www.lyricsfreak.com/i/iron-maiden/68050.html) song.


Well, I was hoping not, but you never know. I was tring to have some fun.

[Agnostic]

I dont know and I dont care.:D

[Vic]

i don´t know and don´t care either, i just accidently voted the wrong option.

[Voice Of Reason]

Again it would be very sad if this is all there was........

When you people that don't beleive in God are on your death bed I hope you change your mind...............

[Vic]

Originally posted by Voice Of Reason
Again it would be very sad if this is all there was........

When you people that don't beleive in God are on your death bed I hope you change your mind...............

afraid that there actually might be nothing after death? that you would "just turn off" like a machine?
i will let death surprise me. If there´s nothing left after death, well who cares? then i´m turned off and i´m not even capable anymore to be afraid or to care about this issue :) .
if there actually is something else after death, well hoorray. :)

[Simon666]

As an atheist, let me illustrate my point with some pseudo code:

switch (SupremeBeing)
{
case (Jehova):
JewsToHell == FALSE;
HindusToHell == TRUE;
MuslimsToHell == TRUE;
BuddhistsToHell == TRUE;
ChristiansToHell == TRUE;
OthersGoToHell == TRUE;

PeopleGoingToHell = 0.98 // 1.0 == All
break;

case (Vishnu):
JewsToHell == TRUE;
HindusToHell == FALSE;
MuslimsToHell == TRUE;
BuddhistsToHell == TRUE;
ChristiansToHell == TRUE;
OthersGoToHell == TRUE;

PeopleGoingToHell = 0.866 // 1.0 == All
break;

case (Allah):
JewsToHell == TRUE;
HindusToHell == TRUE;
MuslimsToHell == FALSE;
BuddhistsToHell == TRUE;
ChristiansToHell == TRUE;
OthersGoToHell == TRUE;

PeopleGoingToHell = 80.4 // 1.0 == All
break;

case (Buddha):
JewsToHell == TRUE;
HindusToHell == TRUE;
MuslimsToHell == TRUE;
BuddhistsToHell == FALSE;
ChristiansToHell == TRUE;
OthersGoToHell == TRUE;

PeopleGoingToHell = 0.941 // 1.0 == All
break;

case (God):
JewsToHell == TRUE;
HindusToHell == TRUE;
MuslimsToHell == TRUE;
BuddhistsToHell == TRUE;
ChristiansToHell == FALSE;
OthersGoToHell == TRUE;

PeopleGoingToHell = 0.67 // 1.0 == All
break;

case (Other):
JewsToHell == TRUE;
HindusToHell == TRUE;
MuslimsToHell == TRUE;
BuddhistsToHell == TRUE;
ChristiansToHell == TRUE;
OthersGoToHell == TRUE;

PeopleGoingToHell = 0.721 // At least !!!!
break;

case (None):
JewsToHell == FALSE;
HindusToHell == FALSE;
MuslimsToHell == FALSE;
BuddhistsToHell == FALSE;
ChristiansToHell == FALSE;
OthersGoToHell == FALSE;

PeopleGoingToHell = 0.00 // God and hell do not exist
break;
}

Let's assume there are 10 billion people on earth. So, if there is a God, you will in the best case (Christianity) send 0.67*10.000.000.000 people = 6.700.000.000 people to hell, just because they do not recognize or haven't been told about God. And then I do not consider the diverse opinions (catholic-protestant , sunni-shia) and feuds within these religions.

The atheist case is the most compassionate with people. And wouldn't it be more sad if you lived your life obeying some crazy rules by an invisible man and there was no life after death? How could you say then you lived your life freely?

[CyNix]

Let us say that there is a 50/50 chance of no life after death, because there are two options, and no scientific proof for either option. If you are correct, there is no life after death, I have lost a little my going out of my way to obey the simple commands of God. If I am right, there is life after death, what have you lost? Everything. So on which option do you place your life? The one with the most risk, or the least?

[Vic]

so the God-Issue is not really about faith but about risk and statistics?

[CyNix]

Originally posted by Vic
so the God-Issue is not really about faith but about risk and statistics?

No. I am using sats. for those who like to use stats. No one could believe in God without some faith, which does make God hard to argue. I did mention my own faith above.

[Simon666]

Originally posted by CyNix
Let us say that there is a 50/50 chance of no life after death, because there are two options, and no scientific proof for either option. If you are correct, there is no life after death, I have lost a little my going out of my way to obey the simple commands of God. If I am right, there is life after death, what have you lost? Everything. So on which option do you place your life? The one with the most risk, or the least?
Do you believe all those that do not believe in your God are going to hell? I already gave the example above that christians are only 33% of all religions, that means there is 67% chance you are wrong in the case that there is a God and you lose everything too. How about that one?

[Dave]

Originally posted by Simon666
Do you believe all those that do not believe in your God are going to hell? I already gave the example above that christians are only 33% of all religions, that means there is 67% chance you are wrong in the case that there is a God and you lose everything too. How about that one?

I don't think it's a case of which religion is right. In the bible I read it states in the end all religions will fall short of the glory of God. Which means to me he'll make his judgements on a persons belief and not the religion they're connected to.


Then again he just might turn off the lights and say I don't want anyone.:eek:

[KWJams]

Originally posted by Simon666
:rofl:

You don't seriously think I worship Satan? That's just a heavy metal gimmick. My signature is part of an Iron Maiden (http://www.lyricsfreak.com/i/iron-maiden/68050.html) song.

How can we ever take anyone seriously who's avatar shows them picking their nose! :lol:


Religions for the most part are man-made concepts that have evolved into "Basic Training - Code of Conduct guides".

Think outside of the box ;)

The question was "Is there a God" not which religion is the right one.

[Simon666]

Originally posted by KWJams
How can we ever take anyone seriously who's avatar shows them picking their nose! :lol:
That's not picking my nose, that's holding my hand near my mouth pondering at the computerscreen (I was caught offguard by a colleague with a digital camera) while holding a pen. The original can be found here (http://allserv.ugent.be/~skdmeule/SimonAtWork.JPG). Find out by yourself.

It is an interesting claim though, it proves that on the basis of ample documentation (80*80 avatar <-> bible) people believe whatever they want to believe and see what they want to see, regardless of the truth.

[KWJams]

Interesting response -- :D

I quote from your reply about your satan worshiping gimmick being taken seriously and your reaction is defense and counter attack.

[NetxMan]

Originally posted by Simon666
Do you believe all those that do not believe in your God are going to hell? I already gave the example above that christians are only 33% of all religions, that means there is 67% chance you are wrong in the case that there is a God and you lose everything too. How about that one?

Actually simon your wrong,

Islam and Christianity both believe in God (the same God). That percentage makes up 55%.

So using your logic there is only a %45 percent chance that I am wrong. And like CyNix, I prefer to take the more positive choice.

P.S.
Hinduism also believes in one God, I am not sure it is the same as Islam and Christianity. But if it is, then the chances that I am wrong decrease now to %30.

[NetxMan]

Originally posted by Simon666
That's not picking my nose, that's holding my hand near my mouth pondering at the computerscreen (I was caught offguard by a colleague with a digital camera) while holding a pen. The original can be found here (http://allserv.ugent.be/~skdmeule/SimonAtWork.JPG). Find out by yourself.

It is an interesting claim though, it proves that on the basis of ample documentation (80*80 avatar <-> bible) people believe whatever they want to believe and see what they want to see, regardless of the truth.

Actually simon it is called faith in the truth.

I never new George Washington, but I know about him because of what I have read. I have faith that what I have read and heard all my life is the truth.

[Simon666]

Originally posted by NetxMan
Actually simon your wrong,

Islam and Christianity both believe in God (the same God). That percentage makes up 55%.

So using your logic there is only a %45 percent chance that I am wrong. And like CyNix, I prefer to take the more positive choice.

P.S.
Hinduism also believes in one God, I am not sure it is the same as Islam and Christianity. But if it is, then the chances that I am wrong decrease now to %30.
I simplified it a bit, Hinduism has multiple deities and Buddhism doesn't have a God. And although the God may be the same in terms of historic origin (the God of Abraham), what he says is completely different in Jewish, Christian and Islamic faith. They are completely different Gods judging on what they require from mankind. So you are only partially (say <10%) correct.

[Simon666]

Originally posted by KWJams
I quote from your reply about your satan worshiping gimmick being taken seriously and your reaction is defense and counter attack.
Since when am I not allowed to defend myself from terrorist attacks on my personality? :D

[Simon666]

Originally posted by NetxMan
Actually simon it is called faith in the truth.

I never new George Washington, but I know about him because of what I have read. I have faith that what I have read and heard all my life is the truth.
As in case of the avatar, what is in the Bible is parts and fragments that are distorted by something. this distortion is not a resizing but being a second hand source about someone's life in case of the New testament and being a written down version of oral tradition of tales, legends, myths and ancient laws distorted by time.

By the way, there are probably first hand accounts of George Washington's life, and objects that belonged to him like his fake teeth, while as in the case of Jesus there is little historical evidence he even existed. All that exists is second or third hand tales that were written down decades after he supposedly died.

[NetxMan]

Wow, terrorist attacks on your personality? I don't think anyone flew a plane of moral rhetoric into your torn logic. But if you think so, maybe you should call the UN and negotiate.

[Simon666]

Originally posted by NetxMan
Wow, terrorist attacks on your personality? I don't think anyone flew a plane of moral rhetoric into your torn logic. But if you think so, maybe you should call the UN and negotiate.
Apparently my sarcasm is like pearls casted before swines.

[NetxMan]

Originally posted by Simon666
As in case of the avatar, what is in the Bible is parts and fragments that are distorted by something. this distortion is not a resizing but being a second hand source about someone's life in case of the New testament and being a written down version of oral tradition of tales, legends, myths and ancient laws distorted by time.

By the way, there are probably first hand accounts of George Washington's life, and objects that belonged to him like his fake teeth, while as in the case of Jesus there is no historical evidence whatsoever he even existed. All that exists is second or third hand tales that were written down decades after he supposedly died.

Maybe you should actually read the Bible for once instead of going off of what you think based on your limited knowledge of it.

First hand accounts? Doubt it.

City of Jerusalem ring a bell?

[NetxMan]

Originally posted by Simon666
Apparently my sarcasm is like pearls casted before swines.

No, its like a empty pot of coffee on a snowy morning.

[Simon666]

Originally posted by NetxMan
Maybe you should actually read the Bible for once instead of going off of what you think based on your limited knowledge of it.

First hand accounts? Doubt it.

City of Jerusalem ring a bell?
Look I went to a catholic school and I think I'm more informed than you on the history behind the Bible. It may have been a catholic and therefor religious school, but even they acknowledged the Old Testament is based on little historical truth and that there is little historic evidence that Jesus even existed.

Historians have found out that there never was a Jerusalem under David as described in the Bible. if I remember correctly from my education the Old Testament was written by Jews in exile in babylonia who wanted to preserve their identity and therefor wrote their culture down, their story about the creation, ancient tales like the flood of Noah (believed to be the Black See getting filled), about their time in Egypt even centuries earlier, etcetera. The New Testament is further not written down by people who knew Jesus first hand and there is little historical evidence Jesus even existed.

[NetxMan]

Originally posted by Simon666
Look I went to a catholic school and I think I'm more informed than you on the history behind the Bible. It may have been a catholic and therefor religious school, but even they acknowledged the Old Testament is based on little historical truth and that there is little historic evidence that Jesus even existed.

Historians have found out that there never was a Jerusalem under David as described in the Bible. if I remember correctly from my education the Old Testament was written by Jews in exile in babylonia who wanted to preserve their identity and therefor wrote their culture down, their story about the creation, ancient tales like the flood of Noah (believed to be the Black See getting filled), about their time in Egypt even centuries earlier, etcetera. The New Testament is further not written down by people who knew Jesus first hand and there is little historical evidence Jesus even existed.


I beg to differ. My father is a minister, we had bible studies at breakfast, lunch, and dinner. And I wasn't taught, God was the greatest and only thing in the world and that I had no choice to believe in him. I was taught to subjectively study and come to a conclusion based on my studies. My fathers 2500 book library kinda helped.

[Simon666]

Originally posted by NetxMan
No, its like a empty pot of coffee on a snowy morning.
I have a pot of coffee here and it is getting winter, I'm going to test that once and see exactly what does this make my sarcasm. I have the feeling the answer would be the same as to the following :

Dark Helmet: I am your father's brother's nephew's cousin's former roommate.
Lone Star: What's that make us?

[Simon666]

Originally posted by NetxMan
I beg to differ. My father is a minister, we had bible studies at breakfast, lunch, and dinner. And I wasn't taught, God was the greatest and only thing in the world and that I had no choice to believe in him. I was taught to subjectively study and come to a conclusion based on my studies. My fathers 2500 book library kinda helped.
That's a study and interpretation of the Bible, not on what is behind the Bible, the origin of the Bible and what supports the Bible archeologically, which is very little. On the positive side, now I know who endoctrinated you.

[NetxMan]

And likewise, I also know who indoctrinated you.

[KWJams]

Originally posted by Simon666
Apparently my sarcasm is like pearls casted before swines.

You have the satan worship wording in your location as a juvenile gimmick to garner attention and to get a reaction out of those who are offended by it.

My sarcasm about how it looks to me like you are picking your nose fell at the feet of swine if you are offended and felt the need to defend yourself from a terroristic attack. :rolleyes:

It is an excellent point that you raise though. Interpretation is unique to the person viewing it. It may be my old monitor or my screen resolution that makes your avatar look like you are picking your nose.
Who knows in some remote part of the world there may be an entire sect of believers waiting for the return of the nose picking person depicted in ancient man made petroglyph's who will bring about mankind's salvation.

Again I will explain that religion which you seem to be focused on is man made, while the philosophical question asked is if there is a God?
Not what is the probability may be as defined in religious text

[Simon666]

The catholic church endoctrinated me to be an atheist? :D:rofl::rofl::rofl:

[Simon666]

Originally posted by KWJams
You have the satan worship wording in your location as a juvenile gimmick to garner attention and to get a reaction out of those who are offended by it.

My sarcasm about how it looks to me like you are picking your nose fell at the feet of swine if you are offended and felt the need to defend yourself from a terroristic attack.
Hey, ho, someone felt offended. You weren't being sarcastic about the picking my nose, you were seriously believing it and used it to undermine my credibility. Sounds like an attack on my personality to me, the terrorist part was just sarcastic, I didn't mean that. I guess that implies either I'm very bad at humor as I have to use exegesis to explain it, or else you're very bad at humor as you need exegesis to understand it. My bet is on a bit of both.

[KWJams]

Originally posted by Simon666
Hey, ho, someone felt offended. You weren't being sarcastic about the picking my nose, you were seriously believing it and used it to undermine my credibility. Sounds like an attack on my personality to me, the terrorist part was just sarcastic, I didn't mean that. I guess that implies either I'm very bad at humor as I have to use exegesis to explain it, or else you're very bad at humor as you need exegesis to understand it. My bet is on a bit of both.

If you go back and look at my post I replied in the same humorous manner ( I used the lol smiley) that you implied with the rofl smiley.

I honestly do not believe that it was a picture of you picking your nose. But in context of how you seem to on one hand want others to take you seriously the picture of you deep in thought can be easily be seen as just another gimmick. ;)

[Simon666]

Originally posted by KWJams
If you go back and look at my post I replied in the same humorous manner ( I used the lol smiley) that you implied with the rofl smiley.

I honestly do not believe that it was a picture of you picking your nose. But in context of how you seem to on one hand want others to take you seriously the picture of you deep in thought can be easily be seen as just another gimmick. ;)
Well, I haven't noticed anything else from you before that was to be taken sarcastically while you could easily notice about me that I am not an entity of pure evil and very likely do not worship Satan. The smiley could just as well have been intended for laughing at people picking their nose than to be interpreted as if you didn't really mean it. I find the first more probable.

[bama47]

Yes there is-he lives in me daily. He is God's Holy Spirit. My Lord and Savior is Jesus Christ.

[KWJams]

Originally posted by Simon666
Well, I haven't noticed anything else from you before that was to be taken sarcastically while you could easily notice about me that I am not an entity of pure evil and very likely do not worship Satan. The smiley could just as well have been intended for laughing at people picking their nose than to be interpreted as if you didn't really mean it. I find the first more probable.

What?? :eek: Never seen me being sarcastic before? I probably use the rolleyes smiley more than anyone else. :D

[Simon666]

Originally posted by KWJams
What?? :eek: Never seen me being sarcastic before? I probably use the rolleyes smiley more than anyone else. :D
Now I remember, the Global Warming thread. About using the rolleyes:

You. (http://www.whistlestopper.com/search.php?s=&action=showresults&searchid=10753&sortby=lastpost&sortorder=descending)
Me. (http://www.whistlestopper.com/search.php?s=&action=showresults&searchid=10755&sortby=lastpost&sortorder=descending)

[KWJams]

Your posts are for the most part well thought out and intelligent.

But it is difficult to determine where the simon666 gimmicks end and where the deep pondering thoughtful replies begin.
Many cases your replies seem to be meant to be outrageous just to get a reaction from others more than to make a point.

How are we to determine if you are playing a gimmick or being serious?

[Simon666]

Originally posted by KWJams
Your posts are for the most part well thought out and intelligent. But it is difficult to determine where the simon666 gimmicks end and where the deep pondering thoughtful replies begin. Many cases your replies seem to be meant to be outrageous just to get a reaction from others more than to make a point. How are we to determine if you are playing a gimmick or being serious?
Errrr... Good point. I often do want to get a reaction so I make it outrageous, often I do mean it. Let's just say if it is too outrageous, it isn't serious.

[Voice Of Reason]

I am a Catholic but I for one don't believe that if you have not accepted Jesus Christ you will burn in hell...........

I think if you have been a good person through out your life and obeyed the laws of God you too can go to heaven regardless whether your Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Hindu, Moselm or whatever............

[bama47]

Everyone has a right to believe or not, but surely everyone is itelligent enough to realize that a Supreme Being put this all together. The Bible says, not me now, that only a Fool says there is no God.

[Chamois]

I think that all of the universe in its infinite past and future is awsome enough to engender the feelings one might have for a mythological god. And with love as the ground of all being, that is enough to work as the core of a code of ethics. All the rest is mythology.

[CyNix]

Originally posted by Simon666
Do you believe all those that do not believe in your God are going to hell? I already gave the example above that christians are only 33% of all religions, that means there is 67% chance you are wrong in the case that there is a God and you lose everything too. How about that one?

First, the top of the thread asks is their a god, not which one.
Second, to answer your question: by following your reasoning I would have a 16.5% chance of being right at the current moment. In this case, I stand a 50% chance of being wrong and losing nothing, and a 33.5% chance of being wrong an losing everything. By these simple numbers I have a 66.5% chance of losing nothing. The odds are in my favor.
But again, my belief in the god I believe in, my God, has nothing to do with numbers, but with firsthand knowledge.

[Simon666]

Originally posted by bama47
Everyone has a right to believe or not, but surely everyone is itelligent enough to realize that a Supreme Being put this all together. The Bible says, not me now, that only a Fool says there is no God.
The Bible says the earth is suspended fixly in the sky. I would say only fools believe the Bible.

[TomAZ]

We have a choice. We can either teach our children that science keeps looking and never takes anything for granted, or we can teach them that one of the many gods will solve our problems and make life better for us.

Which do you think has the better historical precedent?

[JD3]

Originally posted by TomAZ
We have a choice. We can either teach our children that science keeps looking and never takes anything for granted, or we can teach them that one of the many gods will solve our problems and make life better for us.

Which do you think has the better historical precedent?

I am not sure I'd teach either. Or maybe I'd teach both, sort of. I don't see God as a problem solver. More that there is a plan somewhere and that there are rules to live by.

I guess I don't accept the eiher / or you provide here. There are other options.

[bama47]

Do people really think there are like 10,000 different Gods out there-one for each religion. I might be crazy, but I think there is one Holy God for us all.

[gopman]

I think I said this earlier, but pope JP II asserts that all religions can ultimately lead to the same, true God.

[Captain America]

Well, that debunks Romans 10:9 then. ;)

[TomAZ]

Right, CA. In RC school we kids were taught that only catholics had a corner on the true jesus-god. We were also discouraged from even associating with non catholics. No doubt the kids in Northern Ireland are being taught the same thing.

[KWJams]

Drat---are religious monopolies starting to rise up again?

[mahayana]

Students of religion call Judaism, Christianity, and Islam the "Abrahamic religions."

Yahweh, God, and Allah are the same.

The philosophic question of the existence of God is more difficult. If you postulate that God "exists", then where did God come from?

It is easier to admit that God is a three letter answer to an unanswerable question: where did everything (and nothing) come from?

One interesting postulation for all theistic people to ponder is "God is inscrutable."

[gopman]

Here's another- "can God microwave a burrito so hot that even he can't eat it?"

[mirodelphiki]

i am too afraid to think there is not one. to just dissapear after death is just very sad to me. + people take the bible too literaly.
for example in the story of creation, (1 day) a day to whome? time would not be of the esence to god so who's day is it? is it a LITERAL day? no most likly not. the bible has many storys and fables to teach a lesson or explane an event. though some may be literal some may be expresional. and on a scientific level who said the big bang, where in the bible did it say it didn't happen, couldn't that have been the first day?

[mahayana]

Microdelphiki- I think you touch on two subjects very related to the "is there a God" question. Time and Fear of death.

Or stated in the question form, "Does time have a beginning?" and "What happens to me after I die?"

Religions may have an answer to these essential questions. Or they may be blowing smoke.

I like precision in discussions of this kind. So far, the various camps are barely using the same language. Does anyone care if the terms "believer","athiest",and "agnostic" are examined? For starters, hah!

"believer" is the most complex, denoting a theist (or poly-theist) who accepts and promotes a theology, and generally believes that spiritual knowlege is understood by the specially initiated alone, for their salvation.

"atheist" is generally used to mean someone who denies that there is a God. More precisely, it means one who does not accept the idea that God's attributes, rules, etc, are accurately presented in the theology of theists. ( a-theism means outside of the sphere of theism).

"agnostic" is similar, denoting doubt about the second half of the "believer" definition. The gnostic says "you have to be in my group, read my Book, etc, to get spiritual knowledge." The a-gnostic says that may not be the case.

Does this make sense so far?

[gopman]

"generally believes that spiritual knowlege is understood by the specially initiated alone, for their salvation."

I can tell you from experience that this is not the position of the Catholic Church. We believe that the Holy Spirit gives every man an idea of God, and any religion can ultimately lead to him. We do, however, believe that we hold the true faith and the most direct route to God. I would define a theist as someone who believes in a Religious establishment, but I do not think that the second part of your definition is necessarily true, and therefore can't be used to define theism.

[mahayana]

Correct, gopman. What I was defining is "believer." Most combine theology with "special spiritual knowlege" that comes from being "confirmed", "accepting Christ", being a good Catholic,etc.

You can certainly take theism alone as a position, but you will be pressured into the gnostic position as well if you join most any Church. There are required behaviors to go with the beliefs.

I would be most interested to hear more of your views concerning the Holy Spirit (Holy Ghost). Do you consider this to be an entity distinct from God? Christians are characterized by outsiders as having 4 gods, Father, Son, Holy Ghost, and the Devil. Some say Catholics add a 5th, Mary Mother Of God.

My interpretation of "the Holy Spirit descended upon them", was that the early Christians felt full of God's love, not that a separate being came into existence.

My own belief is that the Prophets are boddhisatvas, who came among us to enlighten Mankind, and save us all.

[gopman]

"I would be most interested to hear more of your views concerning the Holy Spirit (Holy Ghost). Do you consider this to be an entity distinct from God? Christians are characterized by outsiders as having 4 gods, Father, Son, Holy Ghost, and the Devil. Some say Catholics add a 5th, Mary Mother Of God"

Well, I wouldn't consider myself an expert, but I think I can answer these questions. First I'll start by addressing Satan and Mary. Satan was an angel, who became jealous and turned to evil. He is not a god. Neither is Mary. She is a saint, and like all other saints, Catholics pray to her for "intercession." Basically she'll put in a good word with God for you. Saints tend to be patrons of particular groups for whom they often intercede. Mary, for example, is the patron saint of mothers. The trilogy is considered to be one God who takes three forms. God is a catchall word for the being that created the Universe in all his forms. Jesus and the Holy Spirit are the means by which He communicates with humans. Jesus communicated directly to men, and the Holy Spirit communicates by inspiring people to do and say things and pray. Catholics believe that part of the Holy Spirit resides within all of us. Your interpretation is basically correct, but it should extend further to say, "the early Christians felt God were inspired by him."

[mahayana]

I think you lost me on the last sentence, gopman. Can you please clarify?

I will study the rest of your excellent response and reply presently.

[gopman]

When the holy spirit came, they were inspired to preach in tongues to the people of the world. That is how the Holy Spirit interacts with people. Whether by leading them to evangelism, to their vocation, or simply to pray.

[mahayana]

Thanks for telling more about Holy Spirit. If I understand, your Supreme Being is subdivided into three, and there exists a pantheon of immortals (Angels and Saints) who interact with humans to help them achieve salvation.

I originally thought that Christian God and Devil were expressions for the duality of the one Creator. GOoD and dEVIL as it were. This a parallel to the yin/yang thinking of Taoism.

It seems from your point of view this would be incorrect.

[Vic]

Originally posted by mahayana
Thanks for telling more about Holy Spirit. If I understand, your Supreme Being is subdivided into three, and there exists a pantheon of immortals (Angels and Saints) who interact with humans to help them achieve salvation.

I originally thought that Christian God and Devil were expressions for the duality of the one Creator. GOoD and dEVIL as it were. This a parallel to the yin/yang thinking of Taoism.

It seems from your point of view this would be incorrect.
According to the bible, the devil is a creation of God.

[xexon]

In my world, the devil is God.

If you believe that all things come from God, then evil too, comes from God.

It is the small mind of humans, that is the weak link in all this.

NOTHING, is apart from God. It is only our inability to understand the big picture, that is a sin.



x

[gopman]

"there exists a pantheon of immortals (Angels and Saints) who interact with humans to help them achieve salvation."

We believe that everyone has an immortal soul which either goes to Hell or Heaven (via purgatory), but other than that, yes. The angels are the servants of God and they can sometimes be called upon to help men, and Saints have the power to intercede.

"If you believe that all things come from God, then evil too, comes from God."

God gave humans freewill, and humans chose to succumb to evil, which ultimately boils down to the denial of God. So evil wasn't really created, it's more like the absence of God's creation.

"According to the bible, the devil is a creation of God."

The angel Lucifer was a creation of God, but he became the Devil by means of his own jealousy.

[mahayana]

Thank you all for explaining these things.

Do any of you have an answer, from your religion, to the chicken and egg type question I asked earlier:

If God "exists", where did God come from?

This is one of my koans.

[Duo_Maxwell]

God gave humans freewill, and humans chose to succumb to evil, which ultimately boils down to the denial of God. So evil wasn't really created, it's more like the absence of God's creation.

I never really understood the draw of religion...but this is just odd man.

Isn't every human a creation of god? How can evil exist in man and if man is a creation of god, and thus there can be no absence of god's creation?

Huh?

Applying logic to religion is like asking a monkey to do calculus. :)

I like the idea that god created two massive black holes and thus started this entire sequence (if you understand that theory). Then he just sat back on the sofa and laughed at our collective stupidity.

[gopman]

I don't know the theological explanation of this, but DesCartes said that God is by definition perfect, and that means he lacks nothing, including duration, so by definition he's just always been there. I don't know how well that sits with most people, but this is what I think. Even if humans could be told where God comes from, we wouldn't understand it because we can't think outside the context of the universe. Any theories we have about what's outside the universe now are based on our knowledge of the universe. We only know God because the Holy Spirit puts the idea in our minds when we come into existence. I think the only way for humans to understand it would be to say "he's always existed."

Now whether humans could understand it if they were introduced to it when they were young and raised with the understanding is a different story for a different thread.

[Duo_Maxwell]

Once again, I say applying logic to religion is like asking a monkey to do calculus.

Indoctrination. Wonderful.

Once again I ask my question.

How can evil exist in man [where evil is the absence of god's creation] if man is a creation of god, and thus there can be no absence of god's creation?

Huh?

DesCartes, sounds like he read some of Plato's works on Socrates.

We only know God because the Holy Spirit puts the idea in our minds when we come into existence.

Indoctrination alert! Indoctrination alert!

[gopman]

"How can evil exist in man [where evil is the absence of god's creation] if man is a creation of god, and thus there can be no absence of god's creation? "

He gave man freewill, and he can choose to deny God, out of jealousy, lust, anger, whatever.

"Indoctrination alert! Indoctrination alert!"

I am an adult, and I have made an informed decision. Believe it or not, I went through a phase like you when I was 14 years old. Until you disprove God's existence, I'll interpret his creation as I like.

[mahayana]

So Duo, a belief unexamined is not worth preaching?

I confess that much of this has been confusing to me as well.

[Duo_Maxwell]

belief unexamined is not worth preaching?

Not necessarily, but a prudent person would be cautious to indoctrinate others or be indocrinated.

Preach it, but do not say it is infalliable.

He gave man freewill, and he can choose to deny God, out of jealousy, lust, anger, whatever.

But man is still a creation of god, and thus cannot be evil since there is no absence of god...2 + 2 = -876. uhhh...

Logic to religion is calculus to a monkey.

No one can prove nor disprove God's existance. Don't look to science for that. Science can disprove the ideas leading to God, but cannot directly disprove its existance.

I'm not one to put all my faith into something lacking evidence ;)

[gopman]

"But man is still a creation of god, and thus cannot be evil since there is no absence of god"

Man has freewill and can therefore choose to deny God. There is nothing confusing about that, and it is perfectly logical. God did not make us perfect beings, and we use our capacity for freewill to accept him or deny him.

[NimNim]

I can not know that God exists through my knowledge. In fact, the idea of God is irrational since it is not a product of anyones knowledge - only subjective thought. To accept something that is irrational only serves the purpose of destroying your mind.

Let's be serious. If you grew up to be 30 with no information regarding God (or any supreme being), you would laugh at the idea. However, most people have to erase the brainwashing we receive as children of such an insane idea.

Unfortunately, very few religous individuals really stop to think if their faith is a product of their knowledge or a product of subjective thought. If they realized God was nothing more than a subjective thought that was contradictory to their knowledge, we wouldn't have this thread.

Though, in modern society, you have to accept that the majority of individuals are riddled with contradicting thoughts/views/values, that are not based on knowledge, but subjective thoughts and faith.

[Cobra]

Religion originated in ancient man to explain the unexplainable. But since knowledge is power, and without going into historical detail, evolved into a system of validating the power of kings, rulers, and the aristocracy. It also began being used to justify almost any egregious injustice, atrocity, genocide, and oppression that the rulers wanted to inflict on an individual or group or other nation.

[cpwill]

incorrect, for religion serves even in areas that are not unexplainable. religion originated because human beings are intensely spiritually aware, just as we are aurally aware and visually aware.

NimNim, your thesis would be very strong except for the fact that there are plenty of atheists who later come to accept God. if one has reached wisdom (as you would put it) to the point where one knows how "ridiculous" it is, then why would one then go the opposite direction? and don't tell me because one is stupid because there have been many incredibly intellegent people who have done just this.
furthermore, the idea of God as simply a subjective thought doesn't hold water when viewed in the light of this God's actions. who in their right mind would be able to create a God who not only tells them to do things they don't want to (even sometimes to die), but is able to predict the future actions of others?


Duo; if you were to make a clay figurine, and later that clay figurine (through gravity or excessive heat) were to alter shape; would it be exactly as you had made it? of course not. thus is man, fallen from our original manufacture.

[mahayana]

Most religious traditions refer to God as the Source.

Logically, it must be asserted that God preceeds existence and time, else our linear thinking renders the Source a paradox.

Any thoughtful person eventually will ask "why do I exist?" and "what will happen to me after I die?" even if they are raised outside of any established religious tradition.

I like the mention of monkeys and calculus. One famous philosophical line was about monkeys and typewriters. It went something like:

"If a million monkeys typed on a million typewriters for a million years, they would eventually produce the works of Shakespeare."

I think this was mostly used to discredit the idea that evolution could explain the complexity of life.

Those that believe they cannot prove or disprove the existence of God can still seek purpose for their lives, and consider what rules and propositions from religion make sense to them.

[NimNim]

Originally posted by cpwill
NimNim, your thesis would be very strong except for the fact that there are plenty of atheists who later come to accept God.

Just because you are atheist doesn't automatically imply you are rational in other areas. :) Total rationality is required. When one holds contradictions in one's knowledge (subjective thought), the individual is driven to become non-contradictory. Unfortunately, some take the road of more subjectivity to explain or rationalize their contradicting thoughts.


if one has reached wisdom (as you would put it) to the point where one knows how "ridiculous" it is, then why would one then go the opposite direction?

There are a lot of false positives regarding the acceptance of a religion. Those who do not recognize them as false will obviously take it as knowledge - when it is really contradicting (or irrational) thought.


and don't tell me because one is stupid because there have been many incredibly intellegent people who have done just this.

I'm not saying anyone is stupid - nor do I believe anyone who is religous is automatically stupid, just as no atheist automatically has wisdom or non-contradictory thoughts.


furthermore, the idea of God as simply a subjective thought doesn't hold water when viewed in the light of this God's actions.

You can't prove that God exists, or refer to his existence by using that in which you are trying to show exists to show it exists....


who in their right mind would be able to create a God who not only tells them to do things they don't want to (even sometimes to die), but is able to predict the future actions of others?

Who is able to predict the future actions of others in which they have no knowledge of? If you point me to the bible, this is no different than the fallacy I pointed out above.

[cpwill]

i can, in fact, point to you personal experience, if you so desire.

[NimNim]

Originally posted by cpwill
i can, in fact, point to you personal experience, if you so desire.

Personal experience through reality or personal experience through mysticism?

[cpwill]

both.

[ronin_asano]

your personal experience filtered through a predispostion to belief in god is hardly a credible source of evidence.

end the debate here. as a believer in god, you have no choice but to admit that your belief is entirely based upon faith. if you were able to prove the existence of god, your salvation would be meaningless.

actually, it's meaningless in any case. if god is omniscient, he knows the outcome of every decision you will ever make, from which it follows those outcomes cannot be otherwise.

in other words, even based in faith, you have not 'chosen' to believe. it was already determined that you would do so.

[NimNim]

Originally posted by cpwill
both.

Please provide examples regarding to reality.

[bama47]

Yes God created Satan, but his name before his fall was Lucifer(Morning Star) He had it made-he was the top angel and that wasn't enough. He wanted to be on the Mountain of Holies. That's just like a being to not be satifised when he really has it made. Satan was created a beautiful being. He was in charge of the music. Now he's in charge of hell lol Not really funny.

[Duo_Maxwell]

"But man is still a creation of god, and thus cannot be evil since there is no absence of god"

Man has freewill and can therefore choose to deny God. There is nothing confusing about that, and it is perfectly logical. God did not make us perfect beings, and we use our capacity for freewill to accept him or deny him.

Logic to gopman is calculus to a monkey.

You originally stated that evil is the absence of God's creation.
But you said man could be evil.
Now if Man is god's creation, how can he be evil?
It is completely irrevelent if we deny god or not, under that logic, man is indepedently a creation of god, no one said creations of God are perfect. Or we would be a god ourselves. As Socrates so puts it.

cpwill: You're missing the point as well

THUS I ASK AGAIN, HOW CAN MAN BE EVIL IF HE IS A CREATION OF GOD?

Debating logic with the religious is like having a dog chase its own tail.

[gopman]

"Now if Man is god's creation, how can he be evil? "

Because he gave us the freedom and ability to chose to deny him. The point where you are confused is this: Man isn't inherently evil, he chooses to be so. He can always repent and choose a new path.

[cpwill]

exactly, man has the choice to do good or evil (thus the moral of the lesson of the apple in the garden of eden: man now has the choice) we are created by God, however, we are also to a degree separated from God.

NimNim; in regards to accurate solid reality; i have seen scenes before they have happened, and have been been warned of events prior to their occurance. i have also had a hell of alot of things that have "coincidence probabilities" of about 1/100,000,000,000... but i'm not sure if you'll accept those or not.

[Duo_Maxwell]

Evil is lack of god's creation. Okay?

Man is a creation of god, indepent of what anyone thinks. Okay?

Thus, man cannot be evil due to the fact he is a creation of god.

Denying the existance of god doesn't change the fact that he is a creation of god and thus cannot be an absence.

Man cannot choose not to be a creation of God.

Logic doesn't work here at all.

Evil = Absence of God's Creation
Man = God Creation.
Thus, evil cannot equal man, nor can man be evil.

It doesn't matter that we are MANY degrees from God, we ARE STILL CREATIONS.

Logic to gopman is calculus to a monkey.

[gopman]

"Thus, man cannot be evil due to the fact he is a creation of god."

Men aren't inherently evil, they choose to deny God. We are created in God's image, and therefore have freewill, but we are not perfect.

[Duo_Maxwell]

I'm starting to think I have to draw this out and define logic for you.

Man is a creation of god.
Man is a creation of god independent of any free will.
Man is a creation of god independent of any traits or beliefs.

Evil is the absence of God's creation.
Evil is the absence of any of God's creation.
Evil is the absence of any of God's creations independent of any traits on those absence of God's creation.

How can a creation of god be evil when evil is speficially defined by you as the absence of God's creation?

Logic to gopman is calculus to a monkey.

A: God's creation
B: Man
C: Evil

If A = B
and C = Absence of B
How can B = C?

HUH?

man is a creation of god indepedent of any freewill of image

[d0lfins0ng]

There is certainly a God. Now, whether or not one chooses to acknowledge Him is another story.

[gopman]

Man isn't evil, but he can choose to deny God and accept evil as a way of life. That's the essence of the argument and your missing it completely. I don't think you are so linear-minded that you can't understand that.

[Duo_Maxwell]

Man isn't evil, but he can choose to deny God and accept evil as a way of life

How can man take up evil when evil is the absence of any of god's creation? Can a man be absent of his own creation? lol.

You can take up evil, it doesn't mean that you aren't one of God's creations.

Thus your definition of evil is incorrect, or you theory that man is a creation of God is incorrect. Simple mathetics proves you wrong.

I don't think you underestand what logic is.

[d0lfins0ng]

Pardon me, but I was responding to the thread question. I don't think you are so linear-minded that you can't understand that.

If you are not responding to me, then I do apologize for the misunderstanding.

[gopman]

"How can man take up evil when evil is the absence of any of god's creation? Can a man be absent of his own creation? lol."

No, but he can choose to deny God. God says don't kill, man has the freedom to kill, killing is evil.

"You can take up evil, it doesn't mean that you aren't one of God's creations."

That's correct. Men aren't evil, but they can deny God. That doesn't make man evil. That means they exercised their freewill.

dolfin, I wasn't responding to you. I agree with your post. Sorry about that.

[NimNim]

Originally posted by cpwill
NimNim; in regards to accurate solid reality; i have seen scenes before they have happened, and have been been warned of events prior to their occurance. i have also had a hell of alot of things that have "coincidence probabilities" of about 1/100,000,000,000... but i'm not sure if you'll accept those or not.

I too have seen events before they actually happened. However, to chalk it up as no less than the work of God is a far reach and irrational.

Concerning coincidences, the probability you speak of is most likely in the wrong context (please correct me if I'm wrong). Let's assume winning the lottery with the ticket I bought today has a probability of 1/100,000,000,000. I think this is reasonable. If I were to win the lottery with this ticket, would you automatically deduce (irrationally) that I won because of God? Secondly, the context in which you speak is in regards to a single instance. During our entire lifetime, the possibilities for "coincidence" naturally increase. For example, let's say I bought 100 lottery tickets everyday for 65 years. The probability I will win is significantly increased. This is no different than doing your daily activity and having some probability of witnessing X at any given moment. The longer/more times you do your daily activity - the better your chances.

Though, I am interested to hear an account regarding being warned....

[Duo_Maxwell]

Thus if man have the ability to do evil and readily takes up evil, under the clearly flawed definition, man cannot be a creation of God.

you know you just contridicted yourself and agreed that your definitions are incorrect?

"You can take up evil, it doesn't mean that you aren't one of God's creations."

Thus, if one takes up evil, and they are still a creation of god, evil cannot be the absence of god's creation, or man cannot be a creation of god.


deny god has nothing to do with creation nor evil.

[Cobra]

Spiritualism is the absence of logic. If God is magic, and with magic anything is possible, then poof, you're wrong. The wave of a magic wand, and poof, B = C.

I hope this simplifies your concerns. Any questions?

[gopman]

"Thus if man have the ability to do evil and readily takes up evil, under the clearly flawed definition, man cannot be a creation of God. "

That doesn't follow. Who said God's creations are perfect? If we never chose evil, that would make us perfect, and therefore gods and not men. He gave us the ability to deny him

"Thus, if one takes up evil, and they are still a creation of god, evil cannot be the absence of god's creation"

You're still stuck on the idea that humans can't be evil. They aren't evil, but they have the capacity to choose to sin/break God's rules/deny God.

[Duo_Maxwell]

I know humans are evil, your definition of evil is clearly wrong!

Cobra: Don't you love how religion simply corrects all loose ends in religion?

[cpwill]

Originally posted by NimNim
I too have seen events before they actually happened. However, to chalk it up as no less than the work of God is a far reach and irrational.

the sequence went like this:

i prayed to God for guidance;
i had a mental image of myself taking an action, and saw the results that that action would have. i was told where to go, and who would be there when i got there, and where they would be sitting.
i followed through, and that is exactly what happened. thus, exact answer to prayer: exact following of a sequence that you would claim i imagined (or i am psychic?).

Concerning coincidences, the probability you speak of is most likely in the wrong context (please correct me if I'm wrong). Let's assume winning the lottery with the ticket I bought today has a probability of 1/100,000,000,000. I think this is reasonable. If I were to win the lottery with this ticket, would you automatically deduce (irrationally) that I won because of God? Secondly, the context in which you speak is in regards to a single instance. During our entire lifetime, the possibilities for "coincidence" naturally increase. For example, let's say I bought 100 lottery tickets everyday for 65 years. The probability I will win is significantly increased. This is no different than doing your daily activity and having some probability of witnessing X at any given moment. The longer/more times you do your daily activity - the better your chances.

Though, I am interested to hear an account regarding being warned....

we've all heard the lottery ticket example: i'm talking about stuff that is alot more deliberate, and typically has a better purpose.

being warned is simple; i say a little breath prayer "God should i do this" and recieve either typically a yes or a no. if i follow the instruction, the result is invariably good, if i do not, the result is invariably bad. i've avoided car wrecks, robbery, and other less dramatic things through this.

[Duo_Maxwell]

Man's unfailing capacity to believe what he perfers to be true, rather than what the evidence shows to be likely and possible, has always astounded me. We long for a caring universe to save us from our childish mistakes, and in the face of the mountains of evidence to the contrary, we will pin all our hopes on the slimest of doubts. God has not be proven not to exist, therefore he must exist! -- Academician Prokhor Zakharov, "For I Have Tasted The Fruit"

[cpwill]

what evidence to the contrary?

all you've got is a lack of provable evidence to the first.

as for hopes or whatnot; i don't have to hope, i know God on a personal level, and have a foundation in my relationship with Jesus Christ.

[gopman]

"I know humans are evil,"

You should really venture out into the real world. You'll be surprised when you get to know people.

[ukangel]

God is good, Mans nature is inherently sinful but it can be redeemed via faith in Christ.

Man has free will if man didnt have free will he would not require redemption and the death of Christ on the cross would have been meaningless.

[gopman]

Right on. The inherent sinfulness is result of freewill mixed with imperfection.

[ronin_asano]

Originally posted by gopman
"Now if Man is god's creation, how can he be evil? "

Because he gave us the freedom and ability to chose to deny him. The point where you are confused is this: Man isn't inherently evil, he chooses to be so. He can always repent and choose a new path.

that is a contradiction. an omniscient god and humans with free will cannot coexist.

[ronin_asano]

Originally posted by d0lfins0ng
There is certainly a God. Now, whether or not one chooses to acknowledge Him is another story.

excellent! i never realized that the case for god could be shown with such brevity.

[ukangel]

Originally posted by ronin_asano
that is a contradiction. an omniscient god and humans with free will cannot coexist.

Ronin, can you explain your reasoning here ?

[gopman]

"that is a contradiction. an omniscient god and humans with free will cannot coexist."

Maybe not within your understanding. He lives across all time, or could travel through time, so perhaps he has simply seen the choices that we freely made.

[ronin_asano]

Originally posted by ukangel
Ronin, can you explain your reasoning here ?

of course.

what this does is force the believer to admit that god cannot be known through reason. many believers refuse to do this, so, this makes an effective counter.

omniscience is typically attributed to 'god'. he possesses infinite knowledge, or if you like, his knowledge is perfect. it then follows that there is nothing that god does not know. if there was something that god did not know, then his knowledge would be lacking, it would be imperfect.

given the above, it becomes necessary that god must know the outcome of any and all decisions any and all humans are making, have made, or will make in the future.

therefore, this means that the result of any decision you make is already determined, and cannot be otherwise. if you were able to choose otherwise, then your choice would be contrary to god's knowledge, which would prove his knowledge to be imperfect and finite.

either humans have free will or god is omniscient, both conditions cannot coexist.

[ronin_asano]

Originally posted by gopman
"that is a contradiction. an omniscient god and humans with free will cannot coexist."

Maybe not within your understanding. He lives across all time, or could travel through time, so perhaps he has simply seen the choices that we freely made.

that doesn't work either.

as a matter of logic an reason, foreknowledge=determinism.

his infinite knowledge makes it necessary that your choice is, was, and will *always* be known to him. you cannot do otherwise, else you prove his knowledge finite.

[Dave]

Originally posted by ronin_asano
of course.

what this does is force the believer to admit that god cannot be known through reason. many believers refuse to do this, so, this makes an effective counter.

omniscience is typically attributed to 'god'. he possesses infinite knowledge, or if you like, his knowledge is perfect. it then follows that there is nothing that god does not know. if there was something that god did not know, then his knowledge would be lacking, it would be imperfect.

given the above, it becomes necessary that god must know the outcome of any and all decisions any and all humans are making, have made, or will make in the future.

therefore, this means that the result of any decision you make is already determined, and cannot be otherwise. if you were able to choose otherwise, then your choice would be contrary to god's knowledge, which would prove his knowledge to be imperfect and finite.

either humans have free will or god is omniscient, both conditions cannot coexist.

I don't think God knows the future in the context you seem to be putting it. Your are right in the fact, he can not give me free will and then already know my choice. What he can do and has done (for the believer) Is let the sins of the choices be forgiven so that the future is known.

Hope that makes sense.;)

[ronin_asano]

Originally posted by Dave
I don't think God knows the future in the context you seem to be putting it. Your are right in the fact, he can not give me free will and then already know my choice. What he can do and has done (for the believer) Is let the sins of the choices be forgiven so that the future is known.

Hope that makes sense.;)

no, it doesn't. at least not logically.

if you are saying there is anything that god does not know, no matter the context, temporal or otherwise, you are also saying that his knowledge is imperfect and finite.

usually, the believer counters this part of the argument with something along the lines of: well, god can do anything so he can know our choices and we still have free will.

okay, fine. then you have just demonstrated that god is deceiving humanity by giving them the illusion of free will.

as i said, this is does not prove or disprove the existence of god. all it does is show that god cannot be known through reason and logic.

i am continually amazed at the number of believers that cannot bring themselves to admit this.

[gopman]

"as a matter of logic an reason, foreknowledge=determinism. "

That doesn't mean that you didn't determine it yourself through your own freewill.

[gopman]

"god cannot be known through reason and logic."

There's one thing we agree on. It takes a certain level of faith, but I think that reason can help clear up some of the questions about him.

[ronin_asano]

Originally posted by gopman
"as a matter of logic an reason, foreknowledge=determinism. "

That doesn't mean that you didn't determine it yourself through your own freewill.

yes, in fact it does.

if god is omniscient, he knows, period. if you are able to determine a choice, then you have shown his knowledge to be finite. there is no other outcome.

[gopman]

He can have knowledge of our choices because he is not restricted by time as we are. He can be in the future after we have decided and know what we decided.

[ronin_asano]

Originally posted by gopman
He can have knowledge of our choices because he is not restricted by time as we are. He can be in the future after we have decided and know what we decided.

no, it doesn't work that way. an infinite being must necessarily exist in all possible instances at once. it cannot be otherwise. to be lacking in any way, would mean he is finite.

the same holds for the perfect knowledge. if there is *any* point at which it is possible for god not to know the outcome of any and all decisions every human is making, has made or will make, by definition the knowledge is no longer infinite.

you realize that what you are saying commits you to holding that you know something god does not, right? surely, as a believer you would not want to make that claim.

[NimNim]

Originally posted by cpwill
the sequence went like this:
i prayed to God for guidance;
i had a mental image of myself taking an action, and saw the results that that action would have. i was told where to go, and who would be there when i got there, and where they would be sitting.

So, let's assume that I could and have done the same thing through means other than praying or God. (Which I have through knowledge). Knowing that you could accomplish this without God, just as effectively, if not more effectively, would you then use rational thought to evaluate your situation? Or, would you continue to insist this is the work of God and anyone who claims to "see the future" is really receiving this information from God - or - the quality of their future information is not up to par with yours (from God)? But the latter couldn't be possible - why would God allow non-believers to see the future - or - deceive them into thinking it was their own rationality that came up with the preview?


we've all heard the lottery ticket example: i'm talking about stuff that is alot more deliberate, and typically has a better purpose.

I've personally never heard the lottery example, but it is comforting to know that others think similarly.....

"Deliberate" and "purpose" are subjective. If they aren't, then you must know the universal definition of these and know that God has the same definition.


being warned is simple; i say a little breath prayer "God should i do this" and recieve either typically a yes or a no. if i follow the instruction, the result is invariably good, if i do not, the result is invariably bad. i've avoided car wrecks, robbery, and other less dramatic things through this.

I just have to ask. Did you ever consider that maybe you have actually obtained some rational knowledge and you are only speaking to yourself with what you really know to be the correct direction? You ask because you want reassurance, you just don't realize you gave yourself the reassurance, not God?

If you have, at what point did rationality go out the window and you concluded that it must be the work of God because there is no other explanation? Is it possible that you don't give yourself enough credit or you haven't evaluated (or have access to) all the information to determine the real cause for your mysteriously answered question?

[Dave]

Originally posted by ronin_asano
no, it doesn't. at least not logically.

if you are saying there is anything that god does not know, no matter the context, temporal or otherwise, you are also saying that his knowledge is imperfect and finite.

usually, the believer counters this part of the argument with something along the lines of: well, god can do anything so he can know our choices and we still have free will.

okay, fine. then you have just demonstrated that god is deceiving humanity by giving them the illusion of free will.

as i said, this is does not prove or disprove the existence of god. all it does is show that god cannot be known through reason and logic.

i am continually amazed at the number of believers that cannot bring themselves to admit this.


First, I stated I agreed with your logic that there could not be free will and the knowledge of choices. Although, I think it's like asking God to make a rock so big he can't lift it. It's a play on words and definitions.

Let's see if I can explan this better. To a believer, once you accept God as your savior, any choice you make, even if it's a sin, will be forgiven. It does not mean the choice was known, but the future is. Without giving a sermon, this is why the bible teaches the whole Jesus dying on the cross story. The words, They know not what they do, implies free will. The blood of Jesus that washed away our sins, secures our future. All a person has to do is accept and believe in him. It's called having faith.

[ronin_asano]

Originally posted by Dave
[B]First, I stated I agreed with your logic that there could not be free will and the knowledge of choices. Although, I think it's like asking God to make a rock so big he can't lift it. It's a play on words and definitions.


the rock he can't pick up example is a bs paradox, and does nothing to advance my side of the argument.


Let's see if I can explan this better. To a believer, once you accept God as your savior, any choice you make, even if it's a sin, will be forgiven. It does not mean the choice was known, but the future is. Without giving a sermon, this is why the bible teaches the whole Jesus dying on the cross story. The words, They know not what they do, implies free will. The blood of Jesus that washed away our sins, secures our future. All a person has to do is accept and believe in him. It's called having faith.

heh. yes, it does mean the choice is known. it has to, if the knowledge is infinite.

of course, you can accept on faith that it goes that way, but evaluating from it from reason shows it cannot be so.

[Dave]

Originally posted by ronin_asano
the rock he can't pick up example is a bs paradox, and does nothing to advance my side of the argument.

Good, we have agreed twice in one day. However, the bs paradox (as you put it) also applies to your argument. If you take two contrasting ideas and try to join them, this is what happens. If you want to call the statements a "bs paradox", I for one can live with that, but it won't help your arguement.:confused:

[NimNim]

Originally posted by Dave
To a believer, once you accept God as your savior, any choice you make, even if it's a sin, will be forgiven.