Mathematical errors in the bible

[swag]

The Value of Pi

Our first example concerns the value of (pronounced as 'Pie', normally spelled as Pi). Pi is the ratio of the circumference of a circle to its diameter. It is an irrational number whose value is represented by an infinite sequence of numbers of which the first six numbers are 3.14159. What does the Bible say about the value of Pi?

I Kings 7:23-26 (II Chronicles 4:2-5)
23Then he made the molten sea; it was round, ten cubits from brim to brim, and five cubits high. A line of thirty cubits would encircle it completely. 24Under its brim were panels all around it, each of ten cubits, surrounding the sea; there were two rows of panels, cast when it was cast. 25It stood on twelve oxen, three facing north, three facing west, three facing south, and three facing east; the sea was set on them. The hindquarters of each were towards the inside. 26It's thickness was a handbreadth; its brim was made like the brim of a cup, like the flower of a lily; it held two thousand baths.

Nobody knows what the molten sea was for. It could be a container for water used in various rituals. [1] Whatever it is, based on the description given above, the drawing below (not drawn to scale) shows what the molten sea could have looked like:

http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/image/moltensea.gif

It is quite obvious that the passage above (verse 23) was talking about the dimensions on the top of the molten sea. Since the diameter is 10 cubits ("10 cubits from brim to brim") and its circumference is 30 cubits ("A line of thirty cubits would encircle it completely"), the value of Pi as defined by the passage above is 30/10 or exactly 3! This value is of course wrong and any mathematical calculation that uses 3 as Pi will produce gravely erroneous results. Obviously 3.0 compared to 3.14159... is gravely inaccurate.

Here is another nail in the coffin of biblical inerrancy-it got one of the most basic ratio of mathematics (and nature) wrong.

Source:
http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/math.html

----------------------------------

I won't post the whole article, and some of the tables would be hard to paste in here. But there is a lot more, such as basic mistakes in counting and sums. There is also a table further down which shows how different cultures (some that came far before the bible and Jesus) came close to Pi. And it shows that the bible is at the bottom of the list when it comes to accuracy. Why is this? Did they simply not care about mathematics? The Egyptians sure had a good approximation though.

[xexon]

There are no philosophers in heaven, as the saying goes. Pretty few mathematicians either, I venture.



x

[Diogenes]

Posted by swag
Here is another nail in the coffin of biblical inerrancy-it got one of the most basic ratio of mathematics (and nature) wrong.If you were to go back in time, say 4000 years or so, and explain the world as you know it to an ignorant shepherd sitting on a hilltop, how would he explain it to his friends and neighbors? How would you express pi in the Sumerian, Akkadian, Babylonian, Egyptian or Aramaic counting system?

My favorite history prof explained that although Hero built a steam engine in Alexandria (a glass ball with two jets, filled with water and heated so it would spin), the industrial revolution was impossible at that time: you can't do long division with Roman numerals.

Have you ever read Stonehenge Decoded (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0880291478/qid=1081653330/sr=8-7/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i7_xgl14/104-2919727-4678344?v=glance&s=books&n=507846)? The old-timers were as intelligent as we are, but they didn't have the notation to express their ideas and observations that we have today. See also Sun Dagger:America's Stonehenge (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/6302863589/qid=1081653518/sr=8-3/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i3_xgl27/104-2919727-4678344?v=glance&s=video&n=507846).

Posted by xexon
Pretty few mathematicians either, I venture.Agreed. Do you suppose there is a message there? :D

[cpwill]

The Value of Pi

Our first example concerns the value of (pronounced as 'Pie', normally spelled as Pi). Pi is the ratio of the circumference of a circle to its diameter. It is an irrational number whose value is represented by an infinite sequence of numbers of which the first six numbers are 3.14159. What does the Bible say about the value of Pi?

I Kings 7:23-26 (II Chronicles 4:2-5)
23Then he made the molten sea; it was round, ten cubits from brim to brim, and five cubits high. A line of thirty cubits would encircle it completely. 24Under its brim were panels all around it, each of ten cubits, surrounding the sea; there were two rows of panels, cast when it was cast. 25It stood on twelve oxen, three facing north, three facing west, three facing south, and three facing east; the sea was set on them. The hindquarters of each were towards the inside. 26It's thickness was a handbreadth; its brim was made like the brim of a cup, like the flower of a lily; it held two thousand baths.

Nobody knows what the molten sea was for. It could be a container for water used in various rituals. [1] Whatever it is, based on the description given above, the drawing below (not drawn to scale) shows what the molten sea could have looked like:

http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/image/moltensea.gif

It is quite obvious that the passage above (verse 23) was talking about the dimensions on the top of the molten sea. Since the diameter is 10 cubits ("10 cubits from brim to brim") and its circumference is 30 cubits ("A line of thirty cubits would encircle it completely"), the value of Pi as defined by the passage above is 30/10 or exactly 3! This value is of course wrong and any mathematical calculation that uses 3 as Pi will produce gravely erroneous results. Obviously 3.0 compared to 3.14159... is gravely inaccurate.

Here is another nail in the coffin of biblical inerrancy-it got one of the most basic ratio of mathematics (and nature) wrong.

Source:
http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/math.html

----------------------------------

I won't post the whole article, and some of the tables would be hard to paste in here. But there is a lot more, such as basic mistakes in counting and sums. There is also a table further down which shows how different cultures (some that came far before the bible and Jesus) came close to Pi. And it shows that the bible is at the bottom of the list when it comes to accuracy. Why is this? Did they simply not care about mathematics? The Egyptians sure had a good approximation though.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :clap: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[hzjoy]

If you truly seek knowledge, you must truly seek truth as well...

I read the website your comments came from and like yourself. The person who wrote it isn't seeking the truth. Their only attacking the Word of God...Trying to the best of their ability, to disprove it or cast doubt on it...

So I decided to go to a website where they have no "religious" axe to grind one way or the other. A website written by scholars in search of truth as well as knowledge... I found www.arcytech.org...

They have all the charts the man you quoted has and oddly enough. They even took an occassion to "study" the very scripture you quote here...

They quoted the same scripture you and the man you quoted did. In truth, they came to the same exact conclusion both of you did. However with one tremdously important difference. They discovered and included a truth that both you and your friend blatantly overlooked...

And I quote; "Thirty divided by 10 gives a value of 3. However, it is interesting to note that the word circumference happens to be spelled with an extra letter. Since in Hebrew all letters are also numbers, if we take the value for the word as it is written (111) to the normal spelled word (106) we get the number 1.047169811...If you multiply this number by 3 you get 3.141509434... An amazingly close approximation to PI ! "

The internet is a great place to argue, but it is also a terrific way to learn. If you lay your "Word of God" bashing and arguments aside. You can search the internet and see how NASA themselves "proved" that the Word of God is "right" about the earth standing still... They can't explain why, but they can prove with today's technology, that it did happen...

[ZXL]

Anyways as a simple explanation to say sheppards etc... 3 is quite a good definition of Pi don't you think? As Diogenes said what would a sheppard in that time be with reading Pi upto 6 decimal digits?

[swag]

And I quote; "Thirty divided by 10 gives a value of 3. However, it is interesting to note that the word circumference happens to be spelled with an extra letter. Since in Hebrew all letters are also numbers, if we take the value for the word as it is written (111) to the normal spelled word (106) we get the number 1.047169811...If you multiply this number by 3 you get 3.141509434... An amazingly close approximation to PI ! "


First of all, I was not trying to bash or disprove anything. I was simply trying to point out how well the bible represents mathematics, namely with the value of Pi and some basic operations such as sums. Just because something was counted wrong in the bible doesn't mean that the whole bible is false. You'll see on the link that I posted that the Egyptians had a much better approximation of Pi, and they were around long before the bible.

Now about your quote above, all I see if a pathetic attempt at using numerology. While the value attained does come very close to Pi, it is only coincidence. Basically they compare the normally spelt word to the incorrect one and further modify it to get the approximation.

I realize that the website was biased, but as long as he wasn't blatantly lying I'll use the information from it.

[hzjoy]

Now about your quote above, all I see if a pathetic attempt at using numerology. While the value attained does come very close to Pi, it is only coincidence. Basically they compare the normally spelt word to the incorrect one and further modify it to get the approximation.

I realize that the website was biased, but as long as he wasn't blatantly lying I'll use the information from it.


I seriously doubt that a website that teaches mathmatics (not religion) could be guilty of, "a pathetic attempt at using numerology"... Obviously they are knowledgable of not only mathmatics, but also the history of the study. Therefore, having knowledge of the fact that in Hebrew, letters and words were also used as numbers...When they implement that fact in their summation, you find it to be "coincidence"...

You say yourself; "I realize that the website is biased, but as long as he wasn't blatantly lying I'll use information from it".... My friend, half the truth is always a lie...and bias is the closed door to knowledge...

[DarthFro]

Ok, i just scanned over some of these posts-so if i make a stupid point i dont really care lol, but did no one tell you the bible wasnt meant to be a scientific document to be taken one hundred per cent literally-take the creation story, genesis was written by a groupd of jewish priests in exilie in babylon about 4000 years ago, he wanted to express in a beautiful piece of poetry gods love for us and all he created which he did, why not let science answer the how questions and religion the metaphysical "shy" questions??

[swag]

I seriously doubt that a website that teaches mathmatics (not religion) could be guilty of, "a pathetic attempt at using numerology"... Obviously they are knowledgable of not only mathmatics, but also the history of the study. Therefore, having knowledge of the fact that in Hebrew, letters and words were also used as numbers...When they implement that fact in their summation, you find it to be "coincidence"...

I don't doubt that they know anything about mathematics, but they still used numerology. They could just say, "then add 22 to 333 and 7 to 106 and you'll get an even better approximation of Pi!", Big deal. The point is that the manipulations that they used were not completely taken from the bible.


You say yourself; "I realize that the website is biased, but as long as he wasn't blatantly lying I'll use information from it".... My friend, half the truth is always a lie...and bias is the closed door to knowledge...

Truth is a very relative concept, but in this case, I didn't see anything on that site that was a lie or that was incorrect.

[Monkey_magic]

my bank balance is £233 at the moment but i said to my friend as i was withdrawing some money i''ve £230 ( rounded down) oh my god it doesn't exist any more!

[EvilTwinFelicia]

First of all, I was not trying to bash or disprove anything. I was simply trying to point out how well the bible represents mathematics, namely with the value of Pi and some basic operations such as sums. Just because something was counted wrong in the bible doesn't mean that the whole bible is false. You'll see on the link that I posted that the Egyptians had a much better approximation of Pi, and they were around long before the bible.


What does it ultimately matter? Abraham and his wife were over 900 years old when they had a child? Is it not obvious the Bible either has a different way of timekeeping and mathematics?

As long as we're talking religion and math, did you know the liturgical clock on one of the floors in the Vatican is responsible for time as we know it?

[xexon]

Hey Felicia. Long time no see.



x

[Viking]

If you truly seek knowledge, you must truly seek truth as well...

I read the website your comments came from and like yourself. The person who wrote it isn't seeking the truth. Their only attacking the Word of God...Trying to the best of their ability, to disprove it or cast doubt on it...

So I decided to go to a website where they have no "religious" axe to grind one way or the other. A website written by scholars in search of truth as well as knowledge... I found www.arcytech.org...

They have all the charts the man you quoted has and oddly enough. They even took an occassion to "study" the very scripture you quote here...

They quoted the same scripture you and the man you quoted did. In truth, they came to the same exact conclusion both of you did. However with one tremdously important difference. They discovered and included a truth that both you and your friend blatantly overlooked...

And I quote; "Thirty divided by 10 gives a value of 3. However, it is interesting to note that the word circumference happens to be spelled with an extra letter. Since in Hebrew all letters are also numbers, if we take the value for the word as it is written (111) to the normal spelled word (106) we get the number 1.047169811...If you multiply this number by 3 you get 3.141509434... An amazingly close approximation to PI ! "

The internet is a great place to argue, but it is also a terrific way to learn. If you lay your "Word of God" bashing and arguments aside. You can search the internet and see how NASA themselves "proved" that the Word of God is "right" about the earth standing still... They can't explain why, but they can prove with today's technology, that it did happen...

I have to agree with you. I cant really buy into this. This is almost like a website I found that was trying to disprove the relationship between humans and apes (which I dont buy into at this moment either) but instead saying that it is a proven fact that humans are decended from bees. Among a few "facts" stated where included:
1) Bees are bald and apes are not.
2) Bees live in a hive (complex society) and apes live in a "small" group.
3) Bees love honey and so do humans.
"If you cant see the truth, you are blind!"

Yep, that sure convinced me...... :lol:

[GlassY7S]

~While all of you are arguing about the value of Pi in the Bible, you seem to be missing the actual message of the Book, which of course, at core, has nothing to do with mathematics at all…

[Slipped Mickey]

~While all of you are arguing about the value of Pi in the Bible, you seem to be missing the actual message of the Book, which of course, at core, has nothing to do with mathematics at all…

No I think it is important. God is obviously not very good with math. It's why athletes from both sides pray before a game. God doesn't take sides, we know that, or we can be reasonably certain. It's hard not to think that God is pissed at the Cubs. At any rate God doesn't take sides or play favorites but both sides pray before a game. What they are actually praying for is a recount before the game is over. Knowing that math is not God's strong suit they are asking God to please pay attention and not screw up the score.

It's not easy. I think God likes sports but he's got a lot of people asking for his attention. Several times in my younger days I can remember vividly saying on more than one occasion something like - "Are you sure it's been over a month? Has this happened before? No, no, I didn't mean that I meant, you know, have you gone this long before and not started? Never? Never, ever? Oh, God." God hearing his name and reviewing the situation for which it was invoked did some mental addition and obviously thought it had only been 3 weeks. A few days later I'd get a joyful phone call and we both would say "Oh thank God."

I'm more than certain were a few times in my misspent but thoroughly pleasurable youth that I could never have driven home after having consumed as many drinks as I knew I had had. Somehow I made it without getting killed or caught. It damn sure wasn't because of something I did right. Maybe God counted less drinks than I did. :D

My life's work doesn't tally me up on the list of the truly blessed. Somehow I have skated through it all. Heavenly accounting errors. Gotta be. :angel:

[GlassY7S]

Mickey, I don't know if your serious, but even the things you say have bearly anything to do with math. But either way, the message of the Bible isn't about winning sports games, or correct counting of drinks, it has more to do with important things...such as peace, salvation, and love of God and fellow man.

[Slipped Mickey]

Mickey, I don't know if your serious, but even the things you say have bearly anything to do with math. But either way, the message of the Bible isn't about winning sports games, or correct counting of drinks, it has more to do with important things...such as peace, salvation, and love of God and fellow man.

That is my point. God is not about math in the Bible or ball games, not about teen lust or Papal condom edicts, not about anger at homosexuals or fat people, not about any of that stuff - that's all garbage that humans have thrown into the mix since before the Bible was written to Bush's conversations with the almighty.

The message in the Bible is about love, compassionate understanding and love for all things and for all people. Numbers qualify and quantify, God needs nothing qualified nor quantified and God certainly never needed numbers. Numbers are man's creation. The Bible's great message is about love, total and complete. We haven't gotten that part right yet, there is little sense in worrying about the rest. The rest of it is filler to illustrate the point.

[Texsand]

I won't post the whole article, and some of the tables would be hard to paste in here. But there is a lot more, such as basic mistakes in counting and sums. There is also a table further down which shows how different cultures (some that came far before the bible and Jesus) came close to Pi. And it shows that the bible is at the bottom of the list when it comes to accuracy. Why is this? Did they simply not care about mathematics? The Egyptians sure had a good approximation though.

You are right about the bible being at the bottom of the ladder regarding ancient civilizations. The Jewish people were backwards compared to all other tribes or cultures in the area. The bible isn't inerrant never was, never will be. The OT wasn't put in writing until approximately 900 BC, and then there were at least four editors that went back and changed or corrected things. Until 900 BC the OT was an oral tradition, the stories of Moses, Noah, Abraham, Adam and Eve were all stories that were handed down orally. That explains the many contradictions and the errors.

The Jewish tribes were using bronze when the rest of the region had entered the iron age again indicating they were far from being as advanced as the Egyptians, Philistines, Babylonians, or Syrians. As for math we call it the Arabic numeral system for a reason. Pythagoras was Greek another culture that was much further along that the Jewish culture. Solomon was able to capitalize on Israel's location and routes through Israel traders used. And that is when and why the Jewish culture began catching up with their neighboring nations. As you read on through however you find that the wealth went to their heads and according to the scriptures were punished and scattered. It's a common theme in the bible for nations or city-states such as Sodom and Gomorrah to be up ended by God for their failure to treat people right. Something we all could stand to think about for a bit.

[Aletheia]

The bible isn't inerrant never was, never will be. That explains the many contradictions and the errors.

You contradict yourself

[nyguy999]

The Bible is wrong about a lot of things.

For example, in the Bible, 22 = 42.

How old was Ahaziah when he began to reign?

22 in 2 Kings 8:26

42 in 2 Chron 22:2