Christian Facts: Need Ideas

[ilikebiggbuttz]

What do you feel are the best facts for proving the Christian
Bible true or false? Btw, saying you have seen God or spoken with
her does NOT count as a generally accepted fact of anything other
than YOUR insanity :-)

[Duo_Maxwell]

by simple logic the bible is at least partially false.

Man wrote the bible
Man is erronous
Thus the bible must be at least partially erronous.

[mataj]

Religion is about truth. Truth is what we believe.
Science is about facts. Facts is what we verify.

If you want to believe, believe and don't look for proofs. That's what belief is all about.

[cpwill]

What do you feel are the best facts for proving the Christian
Bible true or false? Btw, saying you have seen God or spoken with
her does NOT count as a generally accepted fact of anything other
than YOUR insanity :-)

(shrugs) there are many things i could point to, however, you already have decided i am insane, so why should i waste the time talking to someone who's mind is closed?:)

[MikeD4o7]

(shrugs) there are many things i could point to, however, you already have decided i am insane, so why should i waste the time talking to someone who's mind is closed?

But certainly you realize that in a logical debate, "God talks to me" claims should at least be ignored. Afterall, it proves nothing to anyone if you can't somehow demonstrate it. It's the intellectual equivalent of trying to assert that Jimmy Hoffa's ghost comes and talks to you at night as evidence that you know where his body's buried. Unless you can demonstrate it, it's worthless in a debate like we can have here.

[Aletheia]

But certainly you realize that in a logical debate, "God talks to me" claims should at least be ignored. Afterall, it proves nothing to anyone if you can't somehow demonstrate it. It's the intellectual equivalent of trying to assert that Jimmy Hoffa's ghost comes and talks to you at night as evidence that you know where his body's buried. Unless you can demonstrate it, it's worthless in a debate like we can have here.

That's not necessarily true, either. Seeing how the entire Christian faith is based on a personal relationship with God, in which God speaks to us. . .

[Aletheia]

Wow that sounds wierd............

[MikeD4o7]

That's not necessarily true, either. Seeing how the entire Christian faith is based on a personal relationship with God, in which God speaks to us. . .

Well imagine how weird that sounds to all of us that aren't christians. In my experience though, usually when somebody says "God talks to me", it's not quite what the language seems to indicate. Usually when pressed further they admit that there's not a distinct or booming voice or anything like that... then pressed further it's often that God talks to them through signs... or all of the sudden they "know" something they didn't know before... rarely, in my experience, have I ever heard anyone claim that God talks to them, and then go on to describe the voice of God that they heard.

[cpwill]

well communication at all still leaves ya'll in a rather tight spot, then, doesn't it?

ya'll are left with two possible conclusions; either millions upon millions of people are all insane and suffering from the same hallucination.
or we are all lying.

which is it, am i a psycho, or am i a pathological liar?;)


here's a question, are you perfect, morally?

[MikeD4o7]

well communication at all still leaves ya'll in a rather tight spot, then, doesn't it?

ya'll are left with two possible conclusions; either millions upon millions of people are all insane and suffering from the same hallucination.
or we are all lying.

which is it, am i a psycho, or am i a pathological liar?


here's a question, are you perfect, morally?


I think it's similar to people who believe they were abducted by aliens... only on a smaller psychological scale and on a larger population scale. You have some belief that you're very strongly convinced of... and you misconstrue natural phenomenon to fir your belief. I think that most people that feel that God communicates with them confuse their subconscioussness for God... if they get an idea or a thought or a solution that comes from the less active parts of their brain, they attribute it to God instead of to themselves. Now normally I wouldn't try to psychoanalyze anyone, but when faced with the question of "am i a liar or insane", I think that's the best way I can describe what I believe is happening in the minds of all these people, imo.

[Patriot]

What do you feel are the best facts for proving the Christian
Bible true or false? Btw, saying you have seen God or spoken with
her does NOT count as a generally accepted fact of anything other
than YOUR insanity :-)

Jesus answered that questions this way:

8 And gave him (Joseph Smith) power from on high, by the means which were before prepared, to translate the Book of Mormon;

9 Which contains a record of a fallen people, and the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles and to the Jews also;

10 Which was given by inspiration, and is confirmed to others by the ministering of angels, and is declared unto the world by them—

11 Proving to the world that the holy scriptures (Bible) are true, and that God does inspire men and call them to his holy work in this age and generation, as well as in generations of old;

12 Thereby showing that he is the same God yesterday, today, and forever. Amen

[Slipped Mickey]

I was raised as a Christian but I am no longer. That doesn't mean that I dislike Christians or the faith. It simply means that I don't agree with it. If I did I'd still be a Christian, no? My wife, my children and most of my friends, all of my family are Christians, we've agreed to disagree. There's never been any ill feelings at all.

I tried but I simply couldn't get into it. I hated Sundays as a kid. I dreaded getting dressed up in suit and wasting half a day. It was boring, uncomfortable, I didn't understand a lot of what was said and the music sucked. That's what I remember about it and it never changed. As I became older I began to understand what they were talking about but I couldn't buy it. I tried but it didn't work for me.

In my search I found that much about Jesus came from Greek passion plays, the mysteries, a virgin birth was a theme for the lead god, the humble beginnings, the noble death, even the deus ex machina, resurrection and all that and much more had been done before and written about - before Jesus. The virgin birth thing was what through me over the top. I just never bought it and that started the searching.

Several stories from Buddhist text tell of the walking on water, almost exactly as it was in the bible, the widows mite - exactly the same on it was a Buddhist story that happened centuries before Jesus, Sermon on the Mount with fish and the bread - same thing, centuries before.

The Christian church actually voted on whether Jesus was the son of God or not. I can't remember the dates but somewhere around 70 AD it seems. Much of what is the bible is there because of editing through the years. Much the left out, some stuff they added. I don't think that early Christians would recognize the faith today.

I believe Jesus was a Zealot - militant. I believe he was the King of the Jews and the messiah but there were many messiahs and it didn't mean then what it now means. I do not believe he was any more the son of God than you or I - no more, no less. I believe Christianity is Paulism. Paul created Christianity. I have found much to support my beliefs and nothing that proves them wrong.

The bible is a good book and there are many good lessons in it. The faith isn't for me but I recognize and respect that it does work for many people. I believe there are many paths and one destination.


And gave him (Joseph Smith) power from on high, by the means which were before prepared, to translate the Book of Mormon

Living in Arizona of course I have Mormon friends. Good people. I tell them I can't accept the everything I was raised to believe in the Bible much less Jesus the Western. ;)

[cpwill]

I think it's similar to people who believe they were abducted by aliens... only on a smaller psychological scale and on a larger population scale. You have some belief that you're very strongly convinced of... and you misconstrue natural phenomenon to fir your belief. I think that most people that feel that God communicates with them confuse their subconscioussness for God... if they get an idea or a thought or a solution that comes from the less active parts of their brain, they attribute it to God instead of to themselves. Now normally I wouldn't try to psychoanalyze anyone, but when faced with the question of "am i a liar or insane", I think that's the best way I can describe what I believe is happening in the minds of all these people, imo.

you didn't answer the question.;)

myself, i have no problem with declaring that people that claim to have been abducted by aliens are either recounting realistic experiences or have a psycological diffuculty.

why is that tough for you when faced with the idea of God communicating to man?

do you honestly think that hundreds of millions of people have managed to delude themselves, and that they all somehow managed to come up with the same delusion?

sounds a bit unlikely to me....

[jamesrage]

If you want to believe, believe and don't look for proofs. That's what belief is all about.

:clap:

[cpwill]

:shrug: :)

[mataj]

I don't think I invented something new here. "Faith, not proof" is a fairly old principle.

“Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen” (Hebrews 11:1)

[Texsand]

Jesus answered that questions this way:

8 And gave him (Joseph Smith) power from on high, by the means which were before prepared, to translate the Book of Mormon;

9 Which contains a record of a fallen people, and the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles and to the Jews also;

10 Which was given by inspiration, and is confirmed to others by the ministering of angels, and is declared unto the world by them—

11 Proving to the world that the holy scriptures (Bible) are true, and that God does inspire men and call them to his holy work in this age and generation, as well as in generations of old;

12 Thereby showing that he is the same God yesterday, today, and forever. Amen

The source of the BOM were golden plates, that unlike bibical scrolls have never been seen by any antiquity scholars or for that matter anyone beyond a few people selected by Joseph Smith of which some recanted their story. There is no archeological evidence of any part of the BOM that has been discovered. The BOM has in fact plagerized numerous passages from the bible. And to top it off Joseph Smith not only claims to have heard God, but saw him as well. Historians have found not one but several different versions of Joseph Smith's vision. Seems to me if you saw and heard God speak to you it would be powerful enough to remember down to the last detail.

I don't have anything against Mormons but I do have a problem with inconsistentsies. In fact I was raised a Mormon and am descended from one of Brigham Young's wives. My mother's side of the family comes from membership during Joseph Young's leadership. I also ran for my life after 18 years of indoctination finding that it's better to think and live wihtout being told exactly how to think and live.

[Texsand]

you didn't answer the question.;)

myself, i have no problem with declaring that people that claim to have been abducted by aliens are either recounting realistic experiences or have a psycological diffuculty.

why is that tough for you when faced with the idea of God communicating to man?

do you honestly think that hundreds of millions of people have managed to delude themselves, and that they all somehow managed to come up with the same delusion?

sounds a bit unlikely to me....

I think that people can convince themselves of just about anything. If God is the same, yesterday today and tomorrow why the numerous variations in conceptualizing the One.

[MikeD4o7]

you didn't answer the question.

myself, i have no problem with declaring that people that claim to have been abducted by aliens are either recounting realistic experiences or have a psycological diffuculty.

why is that tough for you when faced with the idea of God communicating to man?

do you honestly think that hundreds of millions of people have managed to delude themselves, and that they all somehow managed to come up with the same delusion?

sounds a bit unlikely to me....


I answered the question, the question was whether or not I thought you were a liar or if you were insane. I do think it's a psychological thing, but I wouldn't call you insane. And, yes... I do believe that hundreds of millions of people are deluded, but I think it's incorrect to say that they all came with the same delusions themselves. They were given delusions, and they accepted them. Is it really that difficult to believe? You had millions of people believing before in a pantheon of gods all with their own melodramas... just as founded in reality as monotheism. You have today, millions of people that believe in ghosts. Millions of people that wake up in the morning and watch talk shows where the hosts talk to their loved that have passed away. Millions of people that believe America is literally an agent of the devil. Millions of people that go to multimillion dollar stadiums where a guy with a nice suit and a microphone pushes people over to heal their illnesses and disabilities.

I don't think the defense that a hundred million people couldn't be deluded is a good one.

[cpwill]

I think that people can convince themselves of just about anything. If God is the same, yesterday today and tomorrow why the numerous variations in conceptualizing the One.

;) change the lense, you change the view.

[cpwill]

MikeDo; good point, but with reference to the panageon; we are not talking about thinking that "There Are Gods Up There", but rather individuals who claim to have met Him, a bit more serious of a matter.

[MikeD4o7]

MikeDo; good point, but with reference to the panageon; we are not talking about thinking that "There Are Gods Up There", but rather individuals who claim to have met Him, a bit more serious of a matter.


That brought up an interesting question. I'm going to research that a bit and see what I can find. I wonder if the same kind of thing did occur with worshippers of the pagan gods. I'll see what I can find... If only we still had the library of Alexandria :(

[Texsand]

I believe you can thank the Christians for the burning of that library.

[Albert]

What do you feel are the best facts for proving the Christian
Bible true or false? Btw, saying you have seen God or spoken with
her does NOT count as a generally accepted fact of anything other
than YOUR insanity :-)

There is a difference between true and truth. Is something literally true meaning can you prove it happened or does something written speak to a truth?

I can think of songs or poetry that while not true in a literal sense speak to a truth.

[MikeD4o7]

I believe you can thank the Christians for the burning of that library.

Do you have any good sources of research info on that? A couple years ago I briefly looked into it just online and found pretty much 3 main theories as to who was responsible for burning it down... but I couldn't find enough evidence one way or another to make any sort of reasonable conclusion.

[Hydrok]

I just read the Da Vinci Code, and am now forever a heathen.

[MikeD4o7]

I just read the Da Vinci Code, and am now forever a heathen.

Great book with a great gimmick (not meant to be negative). It does bring up lots of different points that are worth looking into, but it's not really an objective interpretation of history. The more people it inspires to look into the subject though, the better.

[platinum angel]

fact #1
christians have something to live for
atheists have nothing to live for

.

[Craig]

fact #1
christians have something to live for
atheists have nothing to live for

Fact number two: the preceding "fact" is a fallacious statement and fails to qualify as a "fact".

[platinum angel]

really why, tell me what you live for and why it matters. i mean you and whatever you care for are going to be gone someday.

[swag]

fact #1
christians have something to live for
atheists have nothing to live for

.

It would be more appropriate to say:

Christsians have something to die for
atheists have nothing to die for.

[swag]

I just read the Da Vinci Code, and am now forever a heathen.

Although I have not read the whole book, I think that numerology is ridiculous in general (unless it is used for fun). I bet that you could take any book ever written and get some pretty surprising results in regards to christianity.

[platinum angel]

It would be more appropriate to say:

Christsians have something to die for
atheists have nothing to die for.

that too

it goes either way

[MikeD4o7]

really why, tell me what you live for and why it matters. i mean you and whatever you care for are going to be gone someday

Explain to me why something needs to exist forever in order for it to matter.

[MikeD4o7]

Although I have not read the whole book, I think that numerology is ridiculous in general (unless it is used for fun). I bet that you could take any book ever written and get some pretty surprising results in regards to christianity.


I agree, but The Da Vinci Code actually has nothing to do with numerology... the title is a little misleading.

[swag]

I agree, but The Da Vinci Code actually has nothing to do with numerology... the title is a little misleading.

Oopps....I think that I am thinking about "the bible code".

[MikeD4o7]

Oopps....I think that I am thinking about "the bible code".


Hehe, I read an article a while ago where a team of statisticians used the same guidelines that the Bible Code used to find "secret codes" and were able to find just as many "secret codes" in the Hewbrew translation of War and Peace as they were in the Bible.

[mataj]

Oopps....I think that I am thinking about "the bible code".Using "bible code" methodology theese guys managed to extract prophecy about Tyson's ear bitting incident from Microsoft License Agreement.

http://www.bluedonut.com/biblecode.htm

[cpwill]

I just read the Da Vinci Code, and am now forever a heathen.

dan brown is an interesting writer, but is hardly a subject matter expert when it comes to church history. :lol: in The DaVinci Code he actually got the date of the disovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls wrong; he was even in the wrong decade....:rolleyes:

i wrote an answer on it, once. http://www.whistlestopper.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6709&highlight=DaVinci+Code

look, enjoy the man's book, enjoy playing around with fun characters and stories (personally i liked angels and demos better), but don't base your theology on pop lit....

[Viking]

fact #1
christians have something to live for
atheists have nothing to live for

.

Just plain ridiculous. In all honesty, the atheist friends I have can stack up MORALLY to the christian friends I have. In my opinion there are many many "christians" who arent christians at all. The may go to church every sunday and believe in God but they suck as a human being and give the word "christian" a bad name. I have yet to meet an atheist to push their views on me.... yet on the other hand....

[DRMIZER]

What do you feel are the best facts for proving the Christian
Bible true or false? Btw, saying you have seen God or spoken with
her does NOT count as a generally accepted fact of anything other
than YOUR insanity :-)It's irrelevant. People believe what they wish to believe. Since God has not spoken to me personally I cannot verify the event or the affect on the person. (Although at one point in my life I craved such an event to take place. . . . .Matter of fact for years!) However, as an outsider looking in, I tend to think how special those people must feel once they have been deemed worthy of the actual experience of hearing God speak to them. Pat Robertson, Oral Roberts, Jerry Falwell and Jim Baker, to name a few, all have frequent exchanges with God. Wasn't it Oral who said if he did not rais "X" millions of dollars for his school or hospital that God told him He would strike him dead? Well, Oral didn't but he's still alive and kicking. Guess Oral misunderstood or God simply was kidding him.

Now some families pray diligently that their family member returns home from the war. And they do. Other families also pray ferverently the same prayer only to be unworthy of the same request. Consequently the body is returned to them. . . . . .dead.

How fortunate and special those people must feel when their prayer is answered. And all we can say when these kinds of God-fearing people's prayers cannot be explained is, "God works in mysterious ways." Yes, yes she/he does!

Or another explanation could be it's just the luck of the draw. The only other explanation is that God, in his mysterious way, plays favorites.

[platinum angel]

Explain to me why something needs to exist forever in order for it to matter.

jesus is a little more than something that just exists forever.
we all do something in life right. well why do we do it? who we do it for?

Just plain ridiculous.

no......... its not

In all honesty, the atheist friends I have can stack up MORALLY to the christian friends I have. In my opinion there are many many "christians" who arent christians at all. The may go to church every sunday and believe in God but they suck as a human being and give the word "christian" a bad name.

all christians are hypocritical

[MikeD4o7]

jesus is a little more than something that just exists forever.
we all do something in life right. well why do we do it? who we do it for?


I don't believe in a God... I don't believe I'll be alive forever. I live for the life I have right now. I do the things I do for my friends, my family, and for all of humanity because of empathy for beings that have similar experiences as myself like emotions, feelings... joy and pain... the fact that it will end someday in no way makes me feel that it's pointless.. it just makes feel more like this life is immeasurably precious and should be cherished and taken full advantage of.

[platinum angel]

i don't think i'll convince you other wise so i'll end by saying that i respect your opinion of life

[Viking]

jesus is a little more than something that just exists forever.
we all do something in life right. well why do we do it? who we do it for?



no......... its not



all christians are hypocritical

Yes it is ridiculous and you are wrong about ALL christians being hypocritcal.
The statement that atheists "have nothing to live for" is not only ridiculous but ignorant. There are many atheists who volunteer for the more unfortunates, and all around do very good deeds in and outside of their communities. But apparently, in your opinion, this isnt a good enough reason to live for.
You may think all christians are hypocritical, but I think they are too judgemental for their own good. For someone to believe that a person has no reason to live, just because they are not christian, gives me a great example of their intellectual capacity.

[platinum angel]

are any christians today perfect? here ill answer that for you. no they are not therefore they are hypocritical to gods teachings. that was a really stupid comment (no offence).

"Jordanian authorities say they broke up an al Qaeda plot that would have unleashed a deadly cloud of chemicals in the country's capital. Among alleged targets were the U.S. Embassy, the prime minister's office. The Jordanian government said the plot would have been more deadly than anything al Qaeda has done before, including the 9/11 attacks." source: cnn