evangelicals

[cpwill]

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/campbell200404200902.asp

Holy Boldness
The big success of Evangelical Christianity.

By Colleen Carroll Campbell

Evangelical Christians like to do things in a big, bold way.



The evangelical Promise Keeper movement gathers men by the thousands to praise God in stadium conferences, and more than 3.5 million men have done so since 1991.

The Southern Baptist True Love Waits campaign has led some 2.4 million young people to sign cards pledging that they will save sex for marriage, which they have stacked to the roof of the Georgia Dome in Atlanta and used to blanket the National Mall.

Even Sunday services are a big, bold affair for evangelicals. Some 17,000 souls worship each weekend at the Willow Creek Community Church outside Chicago, and that's just one of an estimated 842 American megachurches that attract at least 2,000 weekly attendants.

Evangelical Christians make up the largest group in American Protestantism, and one quarter to one third of Americans are evangelicals. They are a group known for their boldness in proclaiming their faith in Jesus Christ and their commitment to biblical morality. As the results of a recent poll suggest, the boldness of evangelical Christianity goes a long way toward explaining its bigness.

Pollsters from Greenberg Quinlan Rosner Research studied more than 1,600 evangelicals — Christians who identify themselves as fundamentalist, evangelical, charismatic, Pentecostal, or born-again Protestants. The survey, which was commissioned by PBS's Religion & Ethics Newsweekly and U.S. News & World Report, gauged evangelical opinions on a host of political and social issues.

Pollsters found that three quarters of evangelicals believe they are part of mainstream society, and about the same percentage believe they have had at least some influence on society. But they don't necessarily feel at home there. About three quarters of white evangelicals believe they must "fight to have their voices heard by the American mainstream" and say the mass media are hostile to their moral and spiritual values. Almost half believe that most Americans look down on them.

The siege mentality of evangelicals stems from the clash between their traditional religious values and those of the popular culture. On everything from same-sex marriage to abortion to church attendance, evangelicals tend to be more conservative than other Americans. And white evangelicals — who constitute three quarters of all evangelicals — are particularly conservative, which may explain why they feel particularly besieged.

Consider the hot-button issues of today's culture wars: Some 85 percent of white evangelicals oppose same-sex marriage, compared to 61 percent of all Americans. Two thirds of them think abortion should be illegal, versus 45 percent of the general population.

Even church attendance is a dividing line between evangelicals and mainstream America. More than 70 percent of white evangelicals and 63 percent of black evangelicals say they attend church at least once a week, as compared to about 40 percent of all Americans.

Yet evangelicals are not alone in their concern about America's soul. Seven out of ten evangelicals are very worried that children are not learning values and respect, and three out of four white evangelicals and more than nine out of ten African-American evangelicals say "America's moral values are on the wrong track." As it turns out, most Americans agree. Nearly two-thirds worry about the values children are learning, and more than 70 percent think we're on the wrong track.

And therein lies the secret of evangelicalism's success.

As more Americans sense that something is wrong with our culture, more are attracted to the holy boldness of evangelical Christianity — and to traditional religion in general. Catholic parishes and Orthodox churches that proclaim the Christian message with the same boldness are experiencing similar success. And for decades now, Orthodox and Conservative Judaism have seen a steady influx of "Baal Teshuvah" or "masters of return" — formerly secular Jews who found in traditional religion a community and connection to God that they could not find in secular society.

A 2000 study conducted by the Glenmary Research Center and sponsored by the Association of Statisticians of American Religious Bodies confirmed this trend: It found that the fastest-growing congregations in America between 1990 and 2000 were socially conservative churches that demanded high commitment from their members. The study also found liberal churches, like the Presbyterian Church USA and the United Church of Christ, hemorrhaging members at the fastest rate.

In a decadent culture, the demands of traditional morality appeal. In a sea of pluralism, the clarity of orthodoxy attracts. Religious leaders should keep that in mind when they are tempted to dilute their theology and soften its demands in order to reach more souls. To attract the postmodern pilgrim, it seems, holy boldness is a better choice.

[DeathMonkey]

I hate evangelism. It offends my sense of free will. It reeks of snake oil salesmen and preying on the weak. Mob rules and all that. I swim in that garbage all day every day, and it is the largest target for my anger towards organized Christianity. You and I have debated much, so I wanted to take this opportunity to illustrate the difference in my respect for you, for Patriot, for the other people of faith on this board, and in my life, and what I see as a plague.
Individuals are often not representative of the groups involved. Many, such as yourself, have very personal and personalized, beliefs. Many, and I would say most, are NOT concerned with anything other than the urge to help their fellow man, the original, and laudable, impulse behind Evangelicism.

But holy batsuit, get ten of you together in a room, and man, its on. People get so caught up in what THEY want to do (convert the heathen, whatever) that they ignore anything else. Yeah, I am stereotyping, but only to show how I feel, while aknowleging that this is not always how it IS.

The assumptions that go into evangelical Christianity are inherently arrogant. They assume that they know what is right and best for me, regardless of my supposed God given free will. Yet, I am hounded, harrassed, insulted, patronized, excluded, and in many cases oppressed for my beliefs. I am seen and treated as a lesser person. These smug little bastards cram that gobbledeegook down my throat 24/7, regardless of my desires to the contrary. With you and I, cpwill, its a debate. How the hell do I debate an evangelical President bent on destruction? How do I debate a 100,000 member TV congregation oppressing my gay friends? My female friends?

All on the basis for something I just dont believe in. You live your life, I live mine, and together we figure out how life suits us both. We can figure out compromises, things we dont agree on yet can still live with.

Even if 3 million idiots make an idea look good to each other, it may still be a bad freakin idea. Add to this a general anti-intellectualism (mustnt see the man behind the mirror) found in your average Christian mob, and viola! Recipe for disaster. The bunch that gave us "Southern Culture" of slavery and spousal abuse. Who gave us gay bashing, and led to Black men getting pulled behind trucks. Who gave us the Klan (a Christian organization, btw), Jim Crow, the McCarthy witchunts. Who keeps Latinos and Blacks in ghettos, pulls Madonna videos off the air because **gasp** HER JESUS WAS BLACK!

Your average Christian talks about many of these issues as "I dont believe in that stuff", and I believe thats true. Most Christians are probably nice, intelligent, kind, inclusive people. But get them into a group, get em all fired up with the Spirit o Jesus, and man, you could lead those lemmings off a cliff. Or to violence.

I take such issue with this because of what I have seen in the Middle East. You may say "oh, this is completely different", but we are involved in a Holy War between Christian Fundamentalists, Evangelists, etc, not only with Muslim extremists, but with non-Christians, and liberal Christians over the "soul" of this country. I firmly believe that if the Evangelical Christians win, America ceases to exist, and this Grand Experiment is over. We become another dumbass theocracy, and Liberty and Freedom is dead.

I will fight for the right of anyone to believe what they want. I have no problem with any one person being Christian, Muslim, Zorastrian, Shinto, believeing that the Lucky Charms Leprechaun is the Son of the Mighty Univeral Chicken of Life. But allowing a group to continue to excuse awful actions under the umbrella of theological "right" is the single greatest threat to the American Way we now face.

[Craig]

Just to corroborate some of what DeathMonkey has said:

It is a known psychological phenomenon for groups of people to behave in unusual and even radical ways. For example, there is a tendency for group polarization to occur, which means that the decisions made in the group tend to be more extreme (towards the groups dominate point of view), than the decisions made by individual group members. In fact, it is not uncommon to speak to individual members of a group who would not have made the more extreme decision had they been on their own.

There is also a tendency for groupthink, which is when members of a cohesive group emphasize concurrence at the expense of critical thinking in arriving at a decision. As Deathmonkey illustrated above, groupthink can be a dangerous thing when you have like-minded individuals together.

[Albert]

I believe that the Evangelical Christian movement is mostly positive. I do however believe that they should be open to scrutiny if their professed beliefs conflict with their stated objectives.

As an Evangelical Catholic (yes we do exist) I have often been frustrated by some of my colleague’s focus on sins of the flesh at the expense of social justice. Chris Matthews quotes someone who said if you take all the references to social justice out of the Bible you would be left with a pamphlet. So when I attend a meeting to support hundreds of workers who have lost their jobs of 20 plus years when their company moved jobs to China, I wish that more Evangelicals where at my side.

[gopman]

Evangelism isn't bad, in fact if you support religious freedom and freedom of expression, you should support it. In fact, God established the Church as an evangelical organization on the Pentecost. So to hate evangelism is tantamount to hating Christianity (and Islam) itself.

[DeathMonkey]

if you support religious freedom and freedom of expression, you should support it. In fact, God established the Church as an evangelical organization on the Pentecost. So to hate evangelism is tantamount to hating Christianity (and Islam) itself.

What??? This doesnt even make sense. This is the kind of thinking that drives me batty. God didnt establish anything, God doesnt exist. Thats MY evangelism, one that spazzes Christians from here to Jerusalem. Yet by saying this I am infringing of religious freedom...because, as we all know, religious freedom only means that no one can have any freedom except Christians.
Ask the coralled Muslims how religiously free they are. Hell, I have to make homage to you fairy tale worshiping goons every time I say the Pledge of Allegiance, or look at a dollar. Where's MY religious freedom? I have said this before, its amazing that those of you who try and convert everyone else dont see the damage and anger you engender. Huh. Where have I heard THAT before? Sounds like our foreign policy, coming from......AN EVANGELICAL CHRISTIAN PRESIDENT.

Yes, I hate the evangelical agenda of both Christianity AND Islam. I like individual Christians, even champion Christian causes evey now and then. But this blind robot war from the Moral Majority/Christian Coalition is self serving garbage, and I will fight it until I die. As I did when I WAS a Christian. Because nothing drives people AWAY from Jesus than this crap. Even if I dont personally believe, I recognize the positive effect it has on cpwill, and others, the charity and good works across the world, which are done "in modesty, without rewards, for the Lord does not see these works".

The greatest enemy of positive, enlightened Christianity is Fundamentalist Evangelical Mindless Pisstianity.

[Duo_Maxwell]

Main Entry: evan·ge·lism
Pronunciation: i-'van-j&-"li-z&m
Function: noun
1 : the winning or revival of personal commitments to Christ
2 : militant or crusading zeal

Wow, doesn't the scare the bejezzus out of me.

While I'm at it,

Main Entry: fun·da·men·tal·ism
Pronunciation: -t&l-"i-z&m
Function: noun
1 a often capitalized : a movement in 20th century Protestantism emphasizing the literally interpreted Bible as fundamental to Christian life and teaching b : the beliefs of this movement c : adherence to such beliefs
2 : a movement or attitude stressing strict and literal adherence to a set of basic principles

And people wonder why I don't like organized religion?

[cpwill]

What??? This doesnt even make sense. This is the kind of thinking that drives me batty. God didnt establish anything, God doesnt exist.

;) He has a somewhat different opinion on the matter ;)

Thats MY evangelism, one that spazzes Christians from here to Jerusalem. Yet by saying this I am infringing of religious freedom...because, as we all know, religious freedom only means that no one can have any freedom except Christians.

who said this? i would actually say that currently in american culture its' the other way around; that everyone's afraid of "not being PC", that of all the religions christianity seems to be the one under attack.

Ask the coralled Muslims how religiously free they are.

??? corralled where? are you talking about Gitmo? then i would suggest to you that they are more religiously free there then they ever allowed others to be within their country; they are more than free to practice their religion (with the exception of the whole "jihad against the zionist-west" part), they are provided religiously correct meals, spiritual leaders from their religion....etc.

Hell, I have to make homage to you fairy tale worshiping goons every time I say the Pledge of Allegiance, or look at a dollar.

people force you to say the pledge or to read the national motto on the dollar? who wastes their time trying to do that?

Where's MY religious freedom?

where isn't it? you claim that you are being oppressed, that your voice is being repressed, yet here you are, shouting your beliefs at the top of your lungs. you are more than free to go do so on the street, in public; you can join athiestic societies, you can even join the ACLU, if you like, and fund efforts to further attack the christian church. you are free to label us all "fairy tale worshipping goons" (although i don't think i've ever tried to apply such language to you.) and declare that we are all quite batty. heck, if you wanted to you could worship little green men from mars who come to you in your dreams, nobody's going to stop you.

Yes, I hate the evangelical agenda of both Christianity AND Islam.

what, to share something that we have been given? to preach a gospel of love? to ask others to forgive each other and themselves be forgiven?
my friend, if you hate this then perhaps you should look at whether you are reacting against the reality of the message or a false stereotype you have been given.

I like individual Christians,

i like you:)

even champion Christian causes evey now and then.

??what do you work with??

But this blind robot war from the Moral Majority/Christian Coalition is self serving garbage, and I will fight it until I die. As I did when I WAS a Christian. Because nothing drives people AWAY from Jesus than this crap.

actually statistically that's incorrect (one of the reasons i posted the article). the church as a whole is declining in membership, the only churches that are growing (and boy are they growing) are the evangelicals. it appears that they are providing something people hunger for. nothing drives people away from Jesus more (i would say) than semi-christians.

The greatest enemy of positive, enlightened Christianity is Fundamentalist Evangelical Mindless Pisstianity.

lol, and what if one is both;)

[Craig]

actually statistically that's incorrect (one of the reasons i posted the article). the church as a whole is declining in membership, the only churches that are growing (and boy are they growing) are the evangelicals. it appears that they are providing something people hunger for. nothing drives people away from Jesus more (i would say) than semi-christians.

Interestingly, Christianity and Atheism are declining in the world in terms of numbers, while the Muslim faith is actually increasing in numbers. My guess is that a good portion of those people are the ones attracted to radical Islam, just as there seems to be mostly interest in "radical" Christianity over here, assuming what you say is true.

[Slipped Mickey]

The greatest enemy of positive, enlightened Christianity is Fundamentalist Evangelical Mindless Pisstianity.

Without a doubt. And if they have their way they will control this nation. It is getting awfully close to that as it is.

[Slipped Mickey]

Evangelism isn't bad, in fact if you support religious freedom and freedom of expression, you should support it. In fact, God established the Church as an evangelical organization on the Pentecost. So to hate evangelism is tantamount to hating Christianity (and Islam) itself.

I'm sorry but that is absolute nonsense. God established the church? Which one? You have proof of this I suppose. :rolleyes:

What religion is God?

[gopman]

God established the church? Which one? You have proof of this I suppose.

1. Yes, as himself and in the form of Jesus and the Holy Spirit

2. The Roman Catholic Church

3. Yes, the Bible and personal experience

[Slipped Mickey]

1. Yes, as himself and in the form of Jesus and the Holy Spirit

2. The Roman Catholic Church

3. Yes, the Bible and personal experience

That's belief - not proof. I have no problem with it UNTIL you make statements like: "Evangelism isn't bad, in fact if you support religious freedom and freedom of expression, you should support it. In fact, God established the Church as an evangelical organization on the Pentecost. So to hate evangelism is tantamount to hating Christianity (and Islam) itself."

I'll accept your opinion but I will not accept your proof as you haven't provided any. Please don't tell the rest of us then that we hate because we don't agree with you.

If you belong to a faith that prompts you to seek others out to tell them that they are wrong and that you are right, and that if they don't agree with you then they hate Christianity you aren't going to get a great deal of respect for you or your faith - especially when you can't prove it.

[gopman]

I hate evangelism

Christianity = evangelism

Please don't tell the rest of us then that we hate because we don't agree with you.

I'm not the one who said it. Is it really that bad if someone tries to tell you about their faith? They're not forcing you to do anything.

[Albert]

There are Evangelicals and there are Evangelicals. The call to spread the word of God, AKA Evangelize, is part of every Christian tradition. However some Christian denominations follow a Liturgical order while others are more open. Some are far more aggressive in their stances ala 17th Century Jesuits and tend to cause others to paint all Evangelicals with the same broad brush.

[cpwill]

i've always been suprised that the same people who scream that we shouldn't judge islam by the actions of it's fanatics (terrorists) are the same people who are so willing to judge christianity by the actions of it's nutjobs.

[xexon]

I like Billy Graham. The rest of these people are roadkill on the highway to heaven.

Just go around them.



x

[Albert]

i've always been suprised that the same people who scream that we shouldn't judge islam by the actions of it's fanatics (terrorists) are the same people who are so willing to judge christianity by the actions of it's nutjobs.

The similarity is that many will not question the validity of the “nut jobs”

[Slipped Mickey]

i've always been suprised that the same people who scream that we shouldn't judge islam by the actions of it's fanatics (terrorists) are the same people who are so willing to judge christianity by the actions of it's nutjobs.

Not really. I have complete respect for your faith cpwill. If it has served you well then surely your actions will be a beacon for your faith. More power to you.

I've never seen you damning people or telling people your way is the only way and if they don't like it then they hate Christians. I know a number of Muslims and they practice their faith as I believe you do. I respect them as I respect you. Then there are the Fundamentalist. I don't consider them to be anything but a "religion" or a cult unto themselves. They preach exclusion and hatred and intolerance. Some say they are Christians, some say they are Muslims or Jews or Buddhists. They are none of those religions.

Just because a man says he's a Christian doesn't mean that he is. You may take him as a Christian but I will judge him by his words and his actions. So you see I am not judging Christianity.

I once was a Christian, I know the faith. It doesn't work for me but I support and respect it. I left the Christianity fed up and then some with what Fundamentalism had done. If you believe in the Biblical prophecy cpwill I'll tell you something - Fundamentalism just may be the false religion you were warned to watch.

[cpwill]

I've never seen you damning people

i don't have the authority. else trust me both phone-solicitators and car salesmen who do their own comvercials would have been long gone;) honestly, though, i don't understand why people are so interested in that aspect; nobody here is on the selection-for-heaven committee; that's a committee of One (well, also 3, but it gets' confusing;))

or telling people your way is the only way and if they don't like it then they hate Christians.

don't get me wrong: Jesus said "i am the light and the truth and the way, none get to the father except through me". i do believe that the only way to righteousness before God is via forgiveness offered by Jesus' sacrifice. i think universalism will ultimately self-destruct.

Just because a man says he's a Christian doesn't mean that he is. You may take him as a Christian but I will judge him by his words and his actions. So you see I am not judging Christianity.

that works more than fine for me.
except that i would ask a little mercy, christians are hardly perfect; we screw up all too often. perhaps judge a man by what he's trying to be, or that might be too difficult. heck, why judge others at all:)

I once was a Christian, I know the faith. It doesn't work for me but I support and respect it. I left the Christianity fed up and then some with what Fundamentalism had done.

interesting. why didn't (if you don't mind me asking) you simply go to a non-fundamentalist church? there are christian sects all over the spectrum that are available:confused:

If you believe in the Biblical prophecy cpwill I'll tell you something - Fundamentalism just may be the false religion you were warned to watch.

nah, it says that the devil shall assume a pleasing form. i'm personally keeping a very sharp eye on lucy liu. it's a tough business, but somebody's got to do it:D:devil:

[cpwill]

but thank you for the compliments (sweeps off funny-looking hat in a bow):)

[Slipped Mickey]

interesting. why didn't (if you don't mind me asking) you simply go to a non-fundamentalist church? there are christian sects all over the spectrum that are available

Not at all. I didn't go anywhere for a while. I looked around and just couldn't find anything that moved me. I still do a lot of reading about Christianity. It's a good religion and many good things have happened because of it. I became a Zen Buddhist a more than a decade ago and I'm happy with that.

Lucy Lui is one thing on which we can certainly agree. ;)

[Texsand]

1. Yes, as himself and in the form of Jesus and the Holy Spirit

2. The Roman Catholic Church

3. Yes, the Bible and personal experience

The Pentacost occurred after the acsension. Jesus had nothing to do with the founding of the Catholic Church. The bible and your experience won't buy a cup of coffee.

Don't tell me, Matthew Mark Luke and John wrote the Gospels.

[MikeD4o7]

Not really. I have complete respect for your faith cpwill. If it has served you well then surely your actions will be a beacon for your faith. More power to you.

I've never seen you damning people or telling people your way is the only way and if they don't like it then they hate Christians. I know a number of Muslims and they practice their faith as I believe you do. I respect them as I respect you. Then there are the Fundamentalist. I don't consider them to be anything but a "religion" or a cult unto themselves. They preach exclusion and hatred and intolerance. Some say they are Christians, some say they are Muslims or Jews or Buddhists. They are none of those religions.

Just because a man says he's a Christian doesn't mean that he is. You may take him as a Christian but I will judge him by his words and his actions. So you see I am not judging Christianity.

I once was a Christian, I know the faith. It doesn't work for me but I support and respect it. I left the Christianity fed up and then some with what Fundamentalism had done. If you believe in the Biblical prophecy cpwill I'll tell you something - Fundamentalism just may be the false religion you were warned to watch.


I agree that cpwill seems like a genuinely good guy. Despite what cpwill would say about it though, I have a strong feeling he'd be that good of a guy with or without his faith. If you look at the history of human behavior... you'll see that religion really doesn't have much of an affect one way or another on moral or immoral actions. Good men will do good, with or without religious faith while evil men will perform evil, with or without religious faith. It's the ability to empathize and reason that gives people the ability to be moral... not any belief in the supernatural.

[JustinH]

i've always been suprised that the same people who scream that we shouldn't judge islam by the actions of it's fanatics (terrorists) are the same people who are so willing to judge christianity by the actions of it's nutjobs.

I do that very thing when I'm judging the history of Christianity, because the nutjobs then were the majority. But today, I don't judge any religion based on the extremists... unless the extremists are the majority, but I don't think any modern religion is really "extreme" anymore.

[Ghost]

If you look at the history of human behavior... you'll see that religion really doesn't have much of an affect one way or another on moral or immoral actions. Good men will do good, with or without religious faith while evil men will perform evil, with or without religious faith. It's the ability to empathize and reason that gives people the ability to be moral... not any belief in the supernatural.

Excellent point.

And now I'll add my 2 cents. Religion is all fine and dandy, but sometimes it scares me. Why? Because it has to do with an enormous amount of influence and power over a huge percentage of the population. Catholicism, Mormonism, and Jehovah's Witnessism (I know it's not a word...shhhh) are really quite dangerous. Catholicism places the authority of God in the hands of a human being, and that human being can always be fallible. Mormons believe that their leaders can receive revelations from God which radically change the church, and they get these quite frequently. The religion is continuously changing the minds of an impressionable group of people. And the Jehovah's Witnesses? I'm not trying to offend anyone here, and if you are one I apologize in advance...but they're crazy. Like seriously, they're out there. If you don't know about them, go do some research. They are a society unto themselves, they don't respect governments, and they have a history of willfully disobeying laws and covering up crimes.

I was at my friend's baptism a few years ago, and it was a pretty big church. Hundreds of people at least. I really don't know if I've ever felt so disturbed in witnessing human behavior firsthand than I was then. So many people, and they absolutely, completely surrender themselves to this religion. They don't think, they don't question, they don't do anything but accept what they're told. That, to me, is profoundly frightening.

[cpwill]

If you look at the history of human behavior... you'll see that religion really doesn't have much of an affect one way or another on moral or immoral actions.

eh, i think you could argue it both ways. personally, i was actually quite the jerk for many years; i hated the world and the world returned the favor. i think that you could also point to countless conversion stories that run along similar lines.

CS lewis once pointed out that a Christian life isn't garunteed to make you a "good" person, it only promises to make you better. i think he actually used the analogy of genes for teeth to do it:rolleyes::)

(but thanks for the faith in me;):cool: )

[MikeD4o7]

eh, i think you could argue it both ways. personally, i was actually quite the jerk for many years; i hated the world and the world returned the favor. i think that you could also point to countless conversion stories that run along similar lines.

CS lewis once pointed out that a Christian life isn't garunteed to make you a "good" person, it only promises to make you better. i think he actually used the analogy of genes for teeth to do it

(but thanks for the faith in me )


Well believe it or not, there are also plenty of deconversion stories that run along similar lines also. The analogy that CS Lewis makes sounds interesting, and I'd like to know exactly how he makes it... but I don't buy the premise. In my experience I haven't seen anything to indicate that becoming christian makes somebody better, or that somebody is not as good as they could be if they're not christian. I've seen it go both ways. I've seen christians lose their faith and lose some negative character traits along with it... I've seen faithless people "find Christ" and pick up positive character traits... and vice versa.

[Albert]

Well believe it or not, there are also plenty of deconversion stories that run along similar lines also. The analogy that CS Lewis makes sounds interesting, and I'd like to know exactly how he makes it... but I don't buy the premise. In my experience I haven't seen anything to indicate that becoming christian makes somebody better, or that somebody is not as good as they could be if they're not christian. I've seen it go both ways. I've seen christians lose their faith and lose some negative character traits along with it... I've seen faithless people "find Christ" and pick up positive character traits... and vice versa.

Mike
I think the problem we are all faced with is that saying and being are two different things. Many people identify themselves with Christianity but struggle with being Christian. My Grandfather used to say, “There are a lot more professors than practicers”. In a strict sense to be Christian means to literally “Follow Christ” to follow his example and to spread his word. I have found from my own experience that this is a lot harder than it sounds.

What I find ironic is that while I can do this without mentioning or evoking his name some so called “Evangelicals” use his name to promote thoughts and prejudices that have no basis in his teachings. What’s that song “You give love a bad name”. This unfortunately dirties that water for all of us and makes it harder to do our work.

CP
Remember one thing in your journey; the anti-Christ cannot be detected by his teachings but by the results of his teachings. Consider Matthew 5:33, 8:15-23 and Mark 3:23. Question what draws you to hate or intolerance and you will find your answers.

Peace

[cpwill]

[QUOTE=MikeD4o7]Wel The analogy that CS Lewis makes sounds interesting, and I'd like to know exactly how he makes it... [QUOTE]

i think it's in "mere christianity", i'll look it up if you like, but as i recall the general basis was, that his teeth existed within limits that were controlled by his bad-teeth genes. for example, he could brush every day, or never take care of them at all, and all he would establish is the two extremes that are presented by his genes. by contrast, someone with extremely good genes for teeth could possibly never brush/floss etc., and still have better teeth than him. brushing and flossing made his teeth look good in comparison to what they would have been otherwise, not necessarily in comparison to everyone else.

[Texsand]

Mike
I think the problem we are all faced with is that saying and being are two different things. Many people identify themselves with Christianity but struggle with being Christian. My Grandfather used to say, “There are a lot more professors than practicers”. In a strict sense to be Christian means to literally “Follow Christ” to follow his example and to spread his word. I have found from my own experience that this is a lot harder than it sounds.

What I find ironic is that while I can do this without mentioning or evoking his name some so called “Evangelicals” use his name to promote thoughts and prejudices that have no basis in his teachings. What’s that song “You give love a bad name”. This unfortunately dirties that water for all of us and makes it harder to do our work.

CP
Remember one thing in your journey; the anti-Christ cannot be detected by his teachings but by the results of his teachings. Consider Matthew 5:33, 8:15-23 and Mark 3:23. Question what draws you to hate or intolerance and you will find your answers.

Peace

Excellent point and post Albert. I don't attend church much these days. I've never been too fond of those who preach and profess their own righteousness while confessing and condemning the sins of others. It's a real turn off. And it's certainly one of the things that people around the world see when this nations touts itself as a Christian nation.

[USA-1]

Evangelism isn't bad, in fact if you support religious freedom and freedom of expression, you should support it. In fact, God established the Church as an evangelical organization on the Pentecost. So to hate evangelism is tantamount to hating Christianity (and Islam) itself.
God established the church? No, man established the church and invented religion.

[DeathMonkey]

;)
who said this? i would actually say that currently in american culture its' the other way around; that everyone's afraid of "not being PC", that of all the religions christianity seems to be the one under attack.
Look at the "morality laws" that are on the books thanks to Christian PACs. Sodomy laws. Temperance laws. Why didnt they sell alcohol on Sunday in Boston? Why do we get Easter off? Christmas? This is all normal to you, so you dont see it. The influence is overwhelming. I scream about it HERE because if I talk about it OUTSIDE MY HOUSE I get my butt whupped.


??? corralled where? are you talking about Gitmo? then i would suggest to you that they are more religiously free there then they ever allowed others to be within their country; they are more than free to practice their religion (with the exception of the whole "jihad against the zionist-west" part), they are provided religiously correct meals, spiritual leaders from their religion....etc.
uh, OK, freedom. In jail. For no reason. Rather than at home. I am talking about those American Arabs who have been in holding throughout this war, entire communities of Arabs investigated by the FBI, etc but also all the brown people in America now coralled into stereotypes, profiles, and targets of hate, regardless of sympathies. An entire religion has been targeted.

people force you to say the pledge or to read the national motto on the dollar? who wastes their time trying to do that?
Yes, one IS forced to say the pledge in certain situations, including, but not limited to: one's swearing in as a citizen (for immigrants), many schools and fraternal organizations...OK, you can NOT say it if you want your butt in the Principles office....heck, that one girl made the NATIONAL NEWS... so tell ME you arent "forced". And yes, as I work for a living, and have to buy all my own stuff, I am forced to carry all this God fearing MONEY (although not nearly as much as I would like....).


where isn't it? you claim that you are being oppressed, that your voice is being repressed, yet here you are, shouting your beliefs at the top of your lungs. you are more than free to go do so on the street, in public; you can join athiestic societies, you can even join the ACLU, if you like, and fund efforts to further attack the christian church. you are free to label us all "fairy tale worshipping goons" (although i don't think i've ever tried to apply such language to you.) and declare that we are all quite batty.
I know what happens to people who worship little green men. It aint pretty. Do you think I could run for President as an Atheist? And have a chance in Hell of winning? Heck, we can't even elect a JEW. You really have no idea what non-Christians go through in this country. While you may not have called me names (although the "fairy tale worshipping goons" was directed in a very Sopranos type way to Evangelists...think Mob goons), you HAVE answered me with flip comments of dogma, as if my little unknowing atheist rants are the petty screamings of a little child. You are not the only one, but even as much as I like you, answering my honest and heartfelt comments with "Well, God God God" is just as insulting to my intelligence. This trait among Evangelical believers (of ANY religion) is a key to my seething rage. Of course, I dont go around invading countries, blowing up buildings, shooting doctors, committing capital crimes in other countries, I, as you so aptly put it, scream on the internet. Sure wish GW and Saddam and Osama did more this and less what they do.



what, to share something that we have been given? to preach a gospel of love? to ask others to forgive each other and themselves be forgiven?

Yeah, I havent asked anyone to provide this service.
"No, I am happy with my current religious service... Uh huh, I realize you can cut my sins in half, lower monthly....yup, 25% more Jesus, 18% less guilt than the other guys...no, no....see, I'm in the middle of dinner...really, not interested, thanks."
I appreciate churches that are there if one needs em. I appreciate churches that do stuff in the community. I still help out with faith-based charities in my area. And no one tries to convert me. What about the idea that God stands there, waiting for one to walk to Him? I dont want anyone pushing me in the back. Jesus Himself speaks on the neccesity of personal choice in accepting His Word. If I have free will, then respect that, and let me find my own way.

actually statistically that's incorrect (one of the reasons i posted the article). the church as a whole is declining in membership, the only churches that are growing (and boy are they growing) are the evangelicals.
More people claim "spirituality" than "religious", many of whom follow and agree with the basic tenets of Christianity. While the Coasts seem to become less Church-going, and lean more towards "spiritual", the Midwest and South have become far more conservative religiously, and far more fundamental. Non-denominational churches have lost people to both Fundamentalist churches, and to a more casual, yet still Christian "spirituality". This still constitutes a populace that holds Christianity in "some esteem" in decision making and political arenas.

I dont want to abolish Christianity, I want them to stop trying to run my life. I get it, Jesus, sins, good, Heaven, yeah. Enough. To me, freedom trumps ANY religion, even mine. When freedom is threatened, even by the seemingly harmless, beneficial words of nice people, I feel the responsibility of defending it.
I see the Evangelical agenda as a threat to Liberty, just as I see Islamic Jihadism as a threat. Christianity is so interwoven in our society that it is invisible to Christians. Just like air. But if you breathe water, you notice it in a big hurry.

[cpwill]

Look at the "morality laws" that are on the books thanks to Christian PACs. Sodomy laws. Temperance laws.

both of which are currently being done away with.

Why do we get Easter off? Christmas?

why do we get Martin Luther King Jr day off? heck, i'm not black.

This is all normal to you, so you dont see it. The influence is overwhelming. I scream about it HERE because if I talk about it OUTSIDE MY HOUSE I get my butt whupped.

did you ever think that perhaps you are predisposed to let it get to you?

and where the heck do you live if you can get assaulted for being athiestic?
i live in the buckle of the bible belt, i can't think of a single place around here where that would happen to you.

uh, OK, freedom. In jail. For no reason.

please point to me the groups of individuals who have been kept in jail for "no reason."

I am talking about those American Arabs who have been in holding throughout this war, entire communities of Arabs investigated by the FBI, etc but also all the brown people in America now coralled into stereotypes, profiles, and targets of hate, regardless of sympathies. An entire religion has been targeted.

oh please, there was such a drive post-9.11 for everyone not to turn this into a war on islam. the service for the victims was christian, jewish, and islamic. the president (one of those evil fundamentalist christians who's trying to use israel to force God into an early Second Coming:rolleyes: ) has declared multiple times that muslims and christians worship the same God.

do young islamic men travelling alone get checked more at airports now? dang straight they do, and they should. as of yet, no 90 year old nuns have pulled off any terrorist attacks. but to claim that this is some kind of inherent hatred for an entire religion, the vast majority of whom's practicioners are peaceful, is rather hyperbolic.

Yes, one IS forced to say the pledge in certain situations, including, but not limited to: one's swearing in as a citizen (for immigrants),

however you are in a group and are free (if you wish) to leave out the "under God" part.

[/quote]many schools and fraternal organizations...[/quote]

private schools, possibly. certainly not public schools.

OK, you can NOT say it if you want your butt in the Principles office....

my brother went to a highschool dominated by the military in the middle of alabama. to my knowledge, he never once stood and said the pledge. the worst thing that ever happened was that a teacher asked me about it.

heck, that one girl made the NATIONAL NEWS...

ah, and why do you think that is that she made the national news?

And yes, as I work for a living, and have to buy all my own stuff, I am forced to carry all this God fearing MONEY

:rolleyes: oh please, as if innanimate objects could have any theological leanings. if you don't like reading in God we trust on the money, don't read it. personally, i don't like reality tv shows. so i don't watch them. i don't scream that i don't want to use my tv now, because it has something on it occasionally that i don't like.

(although not nearly as much as I would like....).

LOL, i hear ya, brother.

I know what happens to people who worship little green men. It aint pretty. Do you think I could run for President as an Atheist?

you couldn't run for president at all, you speak you're mind too much and you're too honest.

You really have no idea what non-Christians go through in this country.

you are making the mistake of assuming i've always been christian;)

While you may not have called me names (although the "fairy tale worshipping goons" was directed in a very Sopranos type way to Evangelists...think Mob goons), you HAVE answered me with flip comments of dogma, as if my little unknowing atheist rants are the petty screamings of a little child.

i assure you that i haven't posted anything on this board that is not my personal opinion. the idea of simply flippantly tossing out bits of dogma is foolish, it wouldn't lead anywhere in the discussion, and wouldn't even be me speaking any more.

show me where you feel i have done this, and i'll clarify whatever i have said, unless, of course, it requires no clarification.

[cpwill]

You are not the only one, but even as much as I like you, answering my honest and heartfelt comments with "Well, God God God" is just as insulting to my intelligence.

excuse me. my opinions are an insult to your intellegence? :raises eyebrow:
perhaps a little work in the christian trait of humility is in order, here, mr non-holier than thou;)

This trait among Evangelical believers (of ANY religion) is a key to my seething rage.

i'm sorry, but i completely dont' understand this. you feel that my answer for everything is tied up in God (it often is; that's part of the point of having a God-focused life), and this can knock you into a rage?

Of course, I dont go around invading countries, blowing up buildings, shooting doctors, committing capital crimes in other countries, I, as you so aptly put it, scream on the internet. Sure wish GW and Saddam and Osama did more this and less what they do.

A) it has been my experience that to blame a religion for the actions of individuals within it is somewhat akin to blaming all black people for inner city crime, or all males for rape or all..... etc. etc. etc.

Yeah, I havent asked anyone to provide this service.
"No, I am happy with my current religious service... Uh huh, I realize you can cut my sins in half, lower monthly....yup, 25% more Jesus, 18% less guilt than the other guys...no, no....see, I'm in the middle of dinner...really, not interested, thanks."

lol, you get phone solicitations?
seriously, if someone wants to talk to you, tell them you're not interested. personally, i only bring it up with folks i already know, or folks that ask. if someone's pushy, tell them no thanks and walk away. but realize that they're not trying to harm or attack you; they've just discovered something they think is great and they want to let others have it too.

it's like if you and i were beggars, and i knew where some great free food was. what kind of @** would i be if i didn't tell you about it?

I appreciate churches that are there if one needs em.

that's not why they're there; a church is not intended to be a once-in-a-bit thing, it is intended to be an active community.

I appreciate churches that do stuff in the community. I still help out with faith-based charities in my area. And no one tries to convert me.

and how does this not clash with you're idea of christianity as presented above?

What about the idea that God stands there, waiting for one to walk to Him?

that he does, "for i stand at the door and knock", is the typically applied verse.

I dont want anyone pushing me in the back.

that's fine. considering that in the history of humankind i don't think anyone has ever managed to successfully "force" another to Christ,;)
but i'm not interested in trying to push anyone towards the door, all i do is tell folks how great it was that I opened it.

Jesus Himself speaks on the neccesity of personal choice in accepting His Word. If I have free will, then respect that, and let me find my own way.

all for it, but i double reference the beggars thing. if i think i've found the way, what kind of friend would i be if i didn't mention it to you, to help you in your search?

More people claim "spirituality" than "religious", many of whom follow and agree with the basic tenets of Christianity. While the Coasts seem to become less Church-going, and lean more towards "spiritual", the Midwest and South have become far more conservative religiously, and far more fundamental. Non-denominational churches have lost people to both Fundamentalist churches, and to a more casual, yet still Christian "spirituality". This still constitutes a populace that holds Christianity in "some esteem" in decision making and political arenas.

i agree, to an extent christianity seems to be splitting into the more conservative areas and the ones' who are more universalist. however, one split is dying, and the other's strength is only increasing, which, to my mind, points out which one provides more for it's constituents;).

I see the Evangelical agenda as a threat to Liberty, just as I see Islamic Jihadism as a threat.

when was the last time a evangelical christian tried to kill you?

Christianity is so interwoven in our society that it is invisible to Christians. Just like air. But if you breathe water, you notice it in a big hurry.

;)so is the idea of representative democracy. what about the poor guy who believes in dictatorships? should we change the entire system to suit him?

[MikeD4o7]

A) it has been my experience that to blame a religion for the actions of individuals within it is somewhat akin to blaming all black people for inner city crime, or all males for rape or all..... etc. etc. etc.


I agree that religion shouldn't be given the blame for all of the bad things people have done... I just also feel that it shouldn't be given credit for the good.

[DMann]

good job cp....not that I agree with all the God stuff...but, you held yourself up well. respect

[cpwill]

I agree that religion shouldn't be given the blame for all of the bad things people have done... I just also feel that it shouldn't be given credit for the good.

hmmm... okay, point-counter-point; but what when the people doing the good specifically give the religion the credit, or when it can be shown (certainly at least in my life) to have made a fairly strong change in daily behavior?

Dman: (tips funny-looking hat to Dman as a note of thanks)

[MikeD4o7]

hmmm... okay, point-counter-point; but what when the people doing the good specifically give the religion the credit, or when it can be shown (certainly at least in my life) to have made a fairly strong change in daily behavior?


Well, I thought about that question for a while last night, and I came up with a few various explanations... but in reality I think that they're not satisfactory and I do need to backtrack and concede that you're right on a couple points that I've been arguing against you on.

I was arguing that there's no correlation between someone becoming Christian and their behavior, but on second thought, that's not entirely true. I think it depends largely on the Christian community that the person falls into, but I think you're right that it will more often that not be a good influence on a person and change their behavior and attitude for the better. This is because Jesus really is a good role model to have. When people choose to become Christian and follow the example of Christ... that is, more often than not, going to lead to a good change... especially if they had a bad outlook on life before. To that extent, you could even call me a Christian in a sense. If you strip away the divinity and the idea of faith, and just look at how Jesus taught we should treat other people... it lines up very very closely to what I believe. Of course, I think we should stay away from calling me a christian though as it would take it out of context and confuse the issue a great deal.

I still stand by my belieft that faith is a vice, not a virtue and I still don't believe in God or Jesus' miracles... but you're right, I do have to admit that if somebody reads the NT, and simply says "I want to treat people like that guy did", then that's a good thing... and that's what I think accounts for the change in behavior. (of course you could get this same exact change in behavior without becoming christian but still by simply looking to Jesus as a role model).

[Hydrok]

I still stand by my belieft that faith is a vice, not a virtue and I still don't believe in God or Jesus' miracles... but you're right, I do have to admit that if somebody reads the NT, and simply says "I want to treat people like that guy did", then that's a good thing... and that's what I think accounts for the change in behavior. (of course you could get this same exact change in behavior without becoming christian but still by simply looking to Jesus as a role model

Consider one thing: what many people consider to be faith is actually a collection of beliefs. I personally believe that true faith is much deeper and basic. I have faith that there exists some organization in our universe, that there are universal truths that are inconceivable. If I form my beliefs from this basic faith does it matter what I call God?

[Texsand]

Well, I thought about that question for a while last night, and I came up with a few various explanations... but in reality I think that they're not satisfactory and I do need to backtrack and concede that you're right on a couple points that I've been arguing against you on.

I was arguing that there's no correlation between someone becoming Christian and their behavior, but on second thought, that's not entirely true. I think it depends largely on the Christian community that the person falls into, but I think you're right that it will more often that not be a good influence on a person and change their behavior and attitude for the better. This is because Jesus really is a good role model to have. When people choose to become Christian and follow the example of Christ... that is, more often than not, going to lead to a good change... especially if they had a bad outlook on life before. To that extent, you could even call me a Christian in a sense. If you strip away the divinity and the idea of faith, and just look at how Jesus taught we should treat other people... it lines up very very closely to what I believe. Of course, I think we should stay away from calling me a christian though as it would take it out of context and confuse the issue a great deal.

I still stand by my belieft that faith is a vice, not a virtue and I still don't believe in God or Jesus' miracles... but you're right, I do have to admit that if somebody reads the NT, and simply says "I want to treat people like that guy did", then that's a good thing... and that's what I think accounts for the change in behavior. (of course you could get this same exact change in behavior without becoming christian but still by simply looking to Jesus as a role model).

Mike, I don't think Jesus ever had any intention of seeing his teachings organized into a religion. I believe he meant for those who followed him to show others how to live by the examples they set by the way they lived, i.e. you shall know them by their fruits. Paul went on to identify what the fruits of the spirit are. Love, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, self-control. Frankly I believe what he taught was the roadmap to peace. But not many people are willing to take a smack on the cheek then turn it so the other one can get whacked as well. Those that claim Christ should by every stretch of the imagination be loving their enemy instead loving to hate their enemy. Most of what passes for Christianity today is nothing but the same kind of hypocrisy that Jesus so absolutely despised during the times in which he lived.

I have always said that should he return incognito, it would be the Christians this time that executes Him.

[MikeD4o7]

Consider one thing: what many people consider to be faith is actually a collection of beliefs. I personally believe that true faith is much deeper and basic. I have faith that there exists some organization in our universe, that there are universal truths that are inconceivable. If I form my beliefs from this basic faith does it matter what I call God?


I'm not sure if I understand your question completely, but I think I should clarify a couple things about what I was saying. God and faith are both words that have relatively ambiguous meanings and their definitions differ depending on context. When I say that faith is a vice, I mean faith as holding any belief which can not be defended by reason... or especially that stands in contradiction of reason. Also When I say God, I mean a supernatural, creator entity... I think more often than not you have people using both words as literary devices... and it really confuses things. You still have people to this day claiming that Einstein believed in "God" because of his "God doesn't play dice with the universe" quote.

[MikeD4o7]

Mike, I don't think Jesus ever had any intention of seeing his teachings organized into a religion. I believe he meant for those who followed him to show others how to live by the examples they set by the way they lived, i.e. you shall know them by their fruits. Paul went on to identify what the fruits of the spirit are. Love, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, self-control. Frankly I believe what he taught was the roadmap to peace. But not many people are willing to take a smack on the cheek then turn it so the other one can get whacked as well. Those that claim Christ should by every stretch of the imagination be loving their enemy instead loving to hate their enemy. Most of what passes for Christianity today is nothing but the same kind of hypocrisy that Jesus so absolutely despised during the times in which he lived.

I have always said that should he return incognito, it would be the Christians this time that executes Him.


http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html

That site link has a list of the various contending theories about Jesus' divinity and what Jesus intended. It lists books by the primary scholars that head up each theory, (including cpwill's favorite, Luke Johnson). It also has a synopsis of each book so you can get a general understanding of where each scholar and author comes from on the subject. Good site if you're looking for reading material.

[gopman]

The Pentacost occurred after the acsension. Jesus had nothing to do with the founding of the Catholic Church. The bible and your experience won't buy a cup of coffee.

Don't tell me, Matthew Mark Luke and John wrote the Gospels.

Jesus "gave Peter the keys" and made him the first Pope, then 4 weeks after his ascension the holy spirit came to the apostles and told them to spread the word of Jesus.

The Bible and my experience won't buy a cup of coffee, but it'll get me a hell of a lot more.

Why not?

[Albert]

Mike, I don't think Jesus ever had any intention of seeing his teachings organized into a religion. I believe he meant for those who followed him to show others how to live by the examples they set by the way they lived, i.e. you shall know them by their fruits. Paul went on to identify what the fruits of the spirit are. Love, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, self-control. Frankly I believe what he taught was the roadmap to peace. But not many people are willing to take a smack on the cheek then turn it so the other one can get whacked as well. Those that claim Christ should by every stretch of the imagination be loving their enemy instead loving to hate their enemy. Most of what passes for Christianity today is nothing but the same kind of hypocrisy that Jesus so absolutely despised during the times in which he lived.

I have always said that should he return incognito, it would be the Christians this time that executes Him.

While I might tend to agree with you about the hypocrisy I do believe that Jesus intended that a religion be formed.

I do think his message gets spun around to justify actions that contradict his message and I believe that he warned of it. The problem is that if people like yourself, who are drawn to his message are turned away by the hypocrisy and the intolerance of some, they win.

[DMann]

he was already a member of a religion

[WiseAker]

As an evangelical I thought the column was good. I was born-again in '76 at the tender age of 18. Proud to be an evangelical right winger. So far on the right some swear I fell off onto my head.

Hey, how 'bout a joke?

What do you get when you cross a Jehovah's Witness with a Unitarian? Someone who goes around knocking on doors saying nothing in particular.

Well,,,, maybe you have to be an evangelical to get it. :D

[cpwill]

You still have people to this day claiming that Einstein believed in "God" because of his "God doesn't play dice with the universe" quote.

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."
-albert einstein


WiseAker; i got it:)

how do you tell when a group of rabid unitarians move into your neighborhood?

A: you find a big burning question mark on your front lawn...:D

[MikeD4o7]

"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."

-- Albert Einstein, 1954, from Albert Einstein: The Human Side, edited by Helen Dukas and Banesh Hoffman, Princeton University Press

I guess he should have reasonably expected as much though considering his loose use of the words "religion" and "God".

[USA-1]

"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."

-- Albert Einstein, 1954, from Albert Einstein: The Human Side, edited by Helen Dukas and Banesh Hoffman, Princeton University Press

I guess he should have reasonably expected as much though considering his loose use of the words "religion" and "God".
I feel better knowing Einstein and I have the same convictions.
What does Steven Hawking say about it?

[DeathMonkey]

In 1987, I started attending Hampshire College, a small liberal (and I mean LIBERAL lol) arts college in Amherst Mass. While there, Operation Rescue began to target a Brookline, Mass womens health clinic. The students at Hampshire organized (in conjunction with other students from Smith, Mount Holyoke, even some from UMASS and Amherst) what we called "safe escorts" - we would meet the women going in and provide help getting into the building.
Although this clinic DID perform abortions, it was not (like most of these places) simply an "abortion clinic". They did low-cost health screenings, pap smears, pregnancy tests, etc.
I did this one weekend a month for two years. I cannot adequately explain the scenes outside. Feotuses in jars, dolls drenched in red paint, screaming, sign waving, violent people, dousing these women in cows blood, eggs, regardless of what the woman was there for. The hate and mindless violence, priests in collar and frock screaming "*****!" "sinner" "murderer" and worse, on what had to be an awful day for these women.
I understand the anti-abortion platform, but this was evil. During that time, 4 women who were unable to make it past the screaming throng of "good, upstanding Christians" died, along with their babies, having sought "back alley" abortions, because they were unable to get the safe, legal proceedure. Who knows how many were traumatized by the experience. I would come home covered in filth thrown by the crowd, with bruises and scratches, from thrown rocks and having been hit with all manner of sticks, signs, dolls, etc. I thought that I would never see that kind of behaviour again.

I was wrong.

In 1990, I moved back to San Francisco. In 1993, I started working as door security and sometime bar back at a small gay club on Haight Street. As a straight man, it was a little odd at first, but I soon made many close friends among the clientele. We had plenty of straight people who came to the club as well, and the atmosphere was on of tolerance and fun. As the AIDS crisis grew, it seemed our bar became a bit of a haven for people who had somewhat outgrown the "scene" but still wanted to have fun.

Most people I knew who died of AIDS during this period, you didnt see them around for a month, then you got an invitation to their funeral. Then one of the bar's co-owners ex-boyfriends contracted HIV. It was the first time someone I knew well had contracted the disease. I went with him on clinic visits a few times when others werent able to. It was a surreal experience. Groups of Christians would be outside, calmly holding signs about HIV being "God's vengeance", that it was "punishment for the sins of the pederasts and sodomites". Churches all over the city preached sermon after sermon about God's Wrath coming to kill the gays.

[continued]

[DeathMonkey]

As Andrew got worse, Christian affiliated churches began denying care to AIDS victims. As many of these people had no insurance, they were piled into the wards at Public hospitals, or be forced to remain outpatients while in the final stages of AIDS. Daily reminders by our local Christian organizations and churches drove the point home: God was cleansing the World of Sodomites. But the worst was yet to come.
As the Gay community struggled to make their voices heard, proposal after proposal to limit the spread of the disease was shot down by "concerned Christians", unwilling to allocate ANY resources to this disease, still seen as primarily Gay one. How do I know they were Christians? They couldnt tell you fast enough. This was proof that God was on their side. Unless you were part of it... even in Liberal San Francisco, if they could have gotten away with sending them all to camps to die, they would have. This battle was fought on the news, with priests and Christian advocates proposing just that: a Gay quarentine.

Andrew died while I sat outside his room with friends, there to support those closest to him. Andrew died covered in his own filth, unable to recognize his friends because of brain lesions, screaming mindlessly. Down the hall, people with signs condemning these people, the strongest, most compassionate, most caring, inclusive, most loving people I have ever known.

That was not the last time that scene played out. In Boston, while visiting friends, we saw a rally in Copely Square, where thousands of Christians turned out to condemn the Gay community and its plague. I have been spit on by Christians at funerals. I have watched memorial vigils be broken up by rabid church goers, I have watched priests IN COLLAR shouting the vilest curses at defenseless, sick people, barely able to stand.

[continued]

[DeathMonkey]

So here's my beef. In my experience, I have met wonderful people from all over. At times in my life I have been priveleged to know people who exemplify things I could only HOPE to learn. I have watched a man lose his greatest love, while people around him hurled epithets and hate. I have seen great women demeaned and reviled, for having brains. I see far more of the anger and hatred towards people who have taught me more about what must have been in Jesus' heart, than those who profess to follow His word.

All the preaching I hear is about whom to hate. Who to revile.

Yes, not all Christians are bad, or are bad people. I know that. But forgive me if my experience is different from yours. Forgive me if everytime I hear a person tell me that gays are abnormal, pedophilliac, abominations all I see is the face of a friend coming out of a dark smelly room where the screams have, mercifully, stopped. Forgive me if all I see is the face of a frightened 19 year old, covered in fake blood, clutching my hand hard enough that I need stitches for the cuts her nails make in my hand.
Forgive me if I think that Jesus would kick all your fannies for the way women have been oppressed, with the justification of His word. Forgive me if I think that these people who trade in this horrendous misjustice should NOT be making decisions for the rest of us.

When I deal with ANYONE one on one, nothing matters but how they are as a person. People who have personal faith, as I tried to point out in the athiesm/faith thread, well, at a personal level I see it as all the same. You believe what you want, and allow me the same courtesy. It is the expression of the worst of people, justified with the words of a man I still consider, as an atheist, to be a great and wonderful teacher, that I cannot abide.

This, and other incidents, are the source of my anger towards the...I dunno, the institution of Christianity (rather than the individuals). I am so tired of defending my loved ones to Bible thumping idiots (not saying all Christians are Bible thumping idiots, but the ones who are are legion).

At the core of Christ is the idea that what one wants to achieve a heart like Christ's. Open, compassionate, caring, strong. The heart that accepted Mary Magdalene, that accepted a Roman gentile as a disciple, who truly carried peace and forgiveness. I cherish the precious few who have this, it is what I take from Jesus, although I do not believe in His divinity, it is what I wish I saw in Christianity as a whole, and I am sorry, though I see it in individuals, I dont see it in the whole.
So, I dont know if any of that makes sense to anyone, because its kind of rambling. I hope you read it in the spirit in which it was written, to illustrate my personal experience, to try to explain that I feel my anger is justified, even if I couldnt tell you who my target is. There is a face, I guess, that sometimes religion wears, that I have seen too often to not be wary of it. So yes, while I am gun-shy and perhaps quick to snarl, and need to take my own advice about being more compassionate, I hope this illustrates why, and perhaps explains the conundrum between those who deserve my anger and those who do not.

[Texsand]

Death Monkey,

Your post sincerely touched my heart as it always does when I see someone not gay willing to stand with gays and come to know firsthand the hatred that we face daily in our lives. Believe me you're more Christian than those that profess it and then in the next breath exude a hatred that I still have trouble understanding. However I've come to know many people that in fact practice a truer form of Christianity than most Christians including those that indentify as atheist.

I lost my brother who was also gay to AIDS in 1987. He was 29 and at that young age had lost the will to live any longer in a society that did nothing but express their disgust and hatred of him. Not a day goes by that I don't think of him and the laughter he could bring anyone. I miss that laughter.

[MikeD4o7]

I feel better knowing Einstein and I have the same convictions.
What does Steven Hawking say about it?


As far as I've seen, Hawking has never really come out and stated explicitly whether or not he believes in God... he has, however, repeated himself over and over on the fact that God is not necessary for the creation of the universe.

"The quantum theory of gravity has opened up a new possibility, in which there would be no boundary to space-time and so there would be no need to specify the behavior at the boundary. There would be no singularities at which the laws of science broke down and no edge of space-time at which one would have to appeal to God or some new law to set the boundary conditions for space-time. One could say: 'The boundary condition of the universe is that it has no boundary.' The universe would be completely self-contained and not affected by anything outside itself. It would neither be created nor destroyed. It would just BE."
[Stephen Hawking, A Brief History of Time (New York: Bantam, 1988), p. 136.]

"Throughout the 1970s I had been mainly studying black holes, but in 1981 my interest in questions about the origin and fate of the universe was reawakened when I attended a conference on cosmology organized by the Jesuits in the Vatican. The Catholic Church had made a bad mistake with Galileo when it tried to lay down the law on a question of science, declaring that the sun went round the earth. Now, centuries later, it had decided to invite a number of experts to advise it on cosmology. At the end of the conference the participants were granted an audience with the pope. He told us that it was all right to study the evolution of the universe after the big bang, but we should not inquire into the big bang itself because that was the moment of Creation and therefore the work of God. I was glad then that he did know the subject of the talk I had just given at the conference -- the possibility that space- time was finite but had no boundary, which means that it had no beginning, no moment of Creation. I had no desire to share the fate of Galileo, with whom I feel a strong sense of identity, partly because of the coincidence of having been born exactly 300 years after his death!"
[Stephen Hawking, A Brief History of Time (New York: Bantam, 1988), pp. 115-16.]

"What I have done is to show that it is possible for the way the universe began to be determined by the laws of science. In that case, it would not be necessary to appeal to God to decide how the universe began. This doesn't prove that there is no God, only that God is not necessary."
[Stephen W. Hawking, Der Spiegel, 1989]

"One does not have to appeal to God to set the initial conditions for the creation of the universe, but if one does He would have to act through the laws of physics." [Stephen Hawking, Black Holes & Baby Universes]

[DeathMonkey]

I am so sorry. It is people like that whom reconfirm my commitment to my beliefs. I do wish to say that there are many Christians globally who DO support many of the ideas I do, including doctors giving their very lives in Africa to work on the AIDS crisis.

I wish there was some way to weed the ignorant, the hatefilled, the perverters of the Word from what has done so many good things, because I dont want to diminish those things. I just want to stop the horrible, misguided things that seem to be part and parcel of the whole package. For every cpwill, there seems to be 4 Jesse Helms. It is difficult to separate, to say "these are the ones". But thats what I have tried to do, showing WHICH people I hold my anger towards.

[MikeD4o7]

Your post sincerely touched my heart as it always does when I see someone not gay willing to stand with gays and come to know firsthand the hatred that we face daily in our lives. Believe me you're more Christian than those that profess it and then in the next breath exude a hatred that I still have trouble understanding. However I've come to know many people that in fact practice a truer form of Christianity than most Christians including those that indentify as atheist.

I lost my brother who was also gay to AIDS in 1987. He was 29 and at that young age had lost the will to live any longer in a society that did nothing but express their disgust and hatred of him. Not a day goes by that I don't think of him and the laughter he could bring anyone. I miss that laughter.


I'm sorry for your loss Texsand. In my experience, the people who don't tolerate homosexuality very seldomly know anyone that's gay. People fear what they don't understand. I could be mistaken, but of all the conservative views I've seen spat out by Cheney, I've never seen him publicly back the anti-gay rhetoric that Bush speaks out on... I hvae a feeling it's because of his personal experience with his daughter.

[Texsand]

I am sure it is because of his daughter whom I'm sure he loves and cares for. Albeit not every parent feels like that about their gay children. I've seen far too many gay teens on the street where they try to survive after being kicked out for coming out.

And thank you Mike for your sympathy in my loss. He really was one of the funniest guys anyone could have known.

Please know that I don't link all Christians to those that spend their time promoting hatred and fear of gays. I know there are those who support us and love us without having the need for us to change something we can't, anymore than I can change which hand I write with or which eye has worse vision in it. Lordy knows I spent my youth and all my adult life trying to change my sexuality and failed miserably when I finally gave it up and came out of the closet at 42.

[Texsand]

I am so sorry. It is people like that whom reconfirm my commitment to my beliefs. I do wish to say that there are many Christians globally who DO support many of the ideas I do, including doctors giving their very lives in Africa to work on the AIDS crisis.

I wish there was some way to weed the ignorant, the hatefilled, the perverters of the Word from what has done so many good things, because I dont want to diminish those things. I just want to stop the horrible, misguided things that seem to be part and parcel of the whole package. For every cpwill, there seems to be 4 Jesse Helms. It is difficult to separate, to say "these are the ones". But thats what I have tried to do, showing WHICH people I hold my anger towards.

And you are doing a brilliant job of walking as He walked. Not easy to do. Bottom line is I know who He'd be hanging out with and who'd be hanging out with Him and it's not Pat Robertson and his ilk. You keep doing what you're doing, in sharing the burdens of others. It's exactly what the Great Commission was about. I always keep in mind the two lines of those who lived to serve the suffering and those who lived to serve themselves.

[Slipped Mickey]

I am so sorry. It is people like that whom reconfirm my commitment to my beliefs. I do wish to say that there are many Christians globally who DO support many of the ideas I do, including doctors giving their very lives in Africa to work on the AIDS crisis.

I wish there was some way to weed the ignorant, the hate filled, the perverters of the Word from what has done so many good things, because I don't want to diminish those things. I just want to stop the horrible, misguided things that seem to be part and parcel of the whole package. For every cpwill, there seems to be 4 Jesse Helms. It is difficult to separate, to say "these are the ones". But thats what I have tried to do, showing WHICH people I hold my anger toward.

Thanks for your honesty. I essentially feel as you do but I am no longer Christian. When I say it I'm sometimes called a Christian hater or some such. Every religion has ignorant, hate filled, perverters who are misguided and worse. It is not easy to weed them out. People such as cpwill speak more for their faith that 4 Jesse Helms can detract from it.

It's all of course easy for me to say but my temper is shortest when I am around the deceivers, users, and abusers of any religion.

[Slipped Mickey]

Also, Death Monkey, once I had staff in an office in Charlotte, North Carolina, in a nice building in a nice part of town. The office was on the 4th floor as I recall. There was an abortion clinic on the 3rd floor. Who knew? The manager of that area selected the office and moved everyone in. I'd been there 4 or 5 times and never knew the clinic was there. It didn't matter anyway.

One day I got a call from the manager to alert me to an incoming fax. Turns out the crazies had discovered the clinic and had been harassing people for about a week. Not knowing who was going in to get an abortion or who worked in the building they simply harassed every woman who went into the building. They called them names and held signs - you know the scene better than I.

The fax was a copy of a letter that several women received in the mail threatening them if they continued to work in the same building as an abortion clinic. The women were scared s@#tless. How did these people get their names and addresses? We hadn't a clue. The police said it may have been from tracing license plates. I made reservations to get out there asap to see the situation for myself. Within the week before I arrived at the office people reported having their cars keyed in the parking garage while at work. Was it related to the abortion protesters? We assume so as two of the women had received threat letters.

These fanatical scum were outside the building when I arrived. I talked to a few. They all claimed to be devout Christians. Talking to them was like reading a medical journal and being proof texted from the Bible all at the same time. The hate was palpable.

I spoke with the building manager and had to make a decision as to break the lease or not and move to another building. I met with everyone in our office there. The women were scared and pissed. The men were just pissed. In the end enough women were too frightened to come to the office to work. I didn't want to give in to the protest pukes but I had staff to think of and their safety was always my foremost concern. Above all else people deserve a safe working environment. We moved.

I remember thinking what would Jesus do regarding abortion. I don't honestly know but I do know he would have thrown blood on people and called them names, spewed hatred or threatened people with violence.

Unwanted pregnancies are for the most part a result of the problem. Like drugs and child sexual abuse the best way to prevent it is through proper awareness and education of children as soon as they are old enough to learn. The other part of the issue is the more difficult. These same self righteous maniacs would like nothing more than for all unwed mothers to be publicly shamed and branded. I've seen that happen on several occasions. This lunacy drives more women to seek abortions! The fanatics can possibly fathom that they are very much part of the problem to begin with.

[cpwill]

deathmonkey, your entire post disturbed me pretty deeply. i really don't know what or how to say it.
but this part reminded me of a story.


I did this one weekend a month for two years. I cannot adequately explain the scenes outside. Feotuses in jars, dolls drenched in red paint, screaming, sign waving, violent people, dousing these women in cows blood, eggs, regardless of what the woman was there for. The hate and mindless violence, priests in collar and frock screaming "*****!" "sinner" "murderer" and worse, on what had to be an awful day for these women.
I understand the anti-abortion platform, but this was evil. During that time, 4 women who were unable to make it past the screaming throng of "good, upstanding Christians" died, along with their babies, having sought "back alley" abortions, because they were unable to get the safe, legal proceedure. Who knows how many were traumatized by the experience. I would come home covered in filth thrown by the crowd, with bruises and scratches, from thrown rocks and having been hit with all manner of sticks, signs, dolls, etc.

:(

1But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. 2At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. 3The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?" 6They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.
7But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." 8Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.
9At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?"
11"No one, sir," she said.
"Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."

[DMann]

Those homophobes aren't real christians...anymore than racists and anti-abortionists who blow up clinics. These people are sick. They're sociopaths. Jesus wants nothing to do with them. That would be my guess. Everything they're about is counter to everything Jesus was talking about, or buddha, or Krsna.

[cpwill]

oh, Jesus still wants everything to do with them.... they are the sinners in the parable as well.

he just doesn't approve of their behavior. as you pointed out, it's rather hard to find the love of Christ in their actions.

[DMann]

I guess I should have said THEY don't have anything to do with Christianity. And that's the thing. They believe they are so right they're insane with it. They've lost touch with the love thy neighbor, turn the other cheek, good Samaritan thing. I think that has alot to do with mass hysteria and the "madness of crowds" type psychology.
Although, one guy told me that it has alot to do with the story about Jesus going into the temple and overthrowing the market tables. He felt the temple was too sacred to turn into a Wal-mart. But, with these people they think this particular passage gives them a license....not unlike the way Usama picks and chooses parts of the Koran and takes them out of context...and so if they feel something is morally wrong...they have to go full on crazy over it.....cause jesus did. But, they aren't really getting it if that's true

[cpwill]

I think that has alot to do with mass hysteria and the "madness of crowds" type psychology.

i'd think you're probably right.:(

[WiseAker]

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."
-albert einstein


WiseAker; i got it:)

how do you tell when a group of rabid unitarians move into your neighborhood?

A: you find a big burning question mark on your front lawn...:D

LOL, Yours tops mine! I'm stealing it. Uh-oh. Can I steal a religion joke? Hmmmm, better find a Unitarian and inquire. :devil: