am i really a bad person?

[Anvils Hammer]

i am an atheist

according to some religous website i found
http://www.judeministries.org/god/godsexistence.htm

"Scripture tells us the atheist is a fool.

Psalm 14:1 The fool has said in his heart,“There is no God.” They are corrupt, They have done abominable works, There is none who does good."

i dont see myself as foolish, abominable or corrupt, and think i do atleast some good.

for the people who are religious
are atheists wrong for their beliefs, am i any of the above things?

[cpwill]

well guess what, you are foolish.

don't be insulted, though, so is everybody else in the world, including the person who wrote that article.

:shrug: welcome to the world of humans, frail fallable things that we are.

as one who knows the individual whom you claim doesn't really exist personally, of course i think you are wrong.

however, i think that you are asking if i think you are a bad person.
in this, i'll freely admit, outside of the idea of human sin, i cannot judge.

all i really have to go by is your byline, in which you sanction state-controlled theft;) :lol: :angel:
j/messin, anvil.

[mataj]

You haven't seen the worst of it. Here's freudistic proof, that you really are a fool http://www.origins.org/articles/vitz_psychologyofatheism.html . MHO about it: Psychoanalysis can be very useful as a scientifically perfected railing tool.

According to this nutcase, you are not just a fool, but also a criminal, and a slave of satan, responsible for youth crime and so on http://www.tencommandments.org/heathens.shtml

Never mind. Religion is just an industry http://www.godulike.co.uk/ , like any other. A slightly more obnoxious than advertizing, media or armament industry, but still just an industry.

You probably have this URL tatooed on your forearm, but anyway... http://www.landoverbaptist.org/

[earth]

I said your actions, not your beliefs, speak for you.

Out of Dostoevsky's "The Idiot":

“As to faith,” he said, smiling, and evidently unwilling to leave Rogojin in this state-“as to faith, I had four curious conversations in two days, a week or so ago. One morning I met a man in the train, and made acquaintance with him at once. I had often heard of him as a very learned man, but an atheist; and I was very glad of the opportunity of conversing with so eminent and clever a person. He doesn’t believe in God, and he talked a good deal about it, but all the while it appeared to me that he was speaking outside the subject. And it has always struck me, both in speaking to such men and in reading their books, that they do not seem really to be touching on that at all, though on the surface they may appear to do so. I told him this, but I dare say I did not clearly express what I meant, for he could not understand me.

“That same evening I stopped at a small provincial hotel, and it so happened that a dreadful murder had been committed there the night before, and everybody was talking about it. Two peasants-elderly men and old friends-had had tea together there the night before, and were to occupy the same bedroom. They were not drunk but one of them had noticed for the first time that his friend possessed a silver watch which he was wearing on a chain. He was by no means a thief, and was, as peasants go, a rich man; but this watch so fascinated him that he could not restrain himself. He took a knife, and when his friend turned his back, he came up softly behind, raised his eyes to heaven, crossed himself, and saying earnestly-‘God forgive me, for Christ’s sake!’ he cut his friend’s throat like a sheep, and took the watch.”

Rogojin roared with laughter. He laughed as though he were in a sort of fit. It was strange to see him laughing so after the sombre mood he had been in just before.

“Oh, I like that! That beats anything!” he cried convulsively, panting for breath. “One is an absolute unbeliever; the other is such a thorough-going believer that he murders his friend to the tune of a prayer! Oh, prince, prince, that’s too good for anything! You can’t have invented it. It’s the best thing I’ve heard!”

“Next morning I went out for a stroll through the town,” continued the prince, so soon as Rogojin was a little quieter, though his laughter still burst out at intervals, “and soon observed a drunken-looking soldier staggering about the pavement. He came up to me and said, ‘Buy my silver cross, sir! You shall have it for fourpence-it’s real silver.’ I looked, and there he held a cross, just taken off his own neck, evidently, a large tin one, made after the Byzantine pattern. I fished out fourpence, and put his cross on my own neck, and I could see by his face that he was as pleased as he could be at the thought that he had succeeded in cheating a foolish gentleman, and away he went to drink the value of his cross. At that time everything that I saw made a tremendous impression upon me. I had understood nothing about Russia before, and had only vague and fantastic memories of it. So I thought, ‘I will wait awhile before I condemn this Judas. Only God knows what may be hidden in the hearts of drunkards.’

“Well, I went homewards, and near the hotel I came across a poor woman, carrying a child-a baby of some six weeks old. The mother was quite a girl herself. The baby was smiling up at her, for the first time in its life, just at that moment; and while I watched the woman she suddenly crossed herself, oh, so devoutly! ‘What is it, my good woman I asked her. (I was never but asking questions then!) Exactly as is a mother’s joy when her baby smiles for the first time into her eyes, so is God’s joy when one of His children turns and prays to Him for the first time, with all his heart!’ This is what that poor woman said to me, almost word for word; and such a deep, refined, truly religious thought it was-a thought in which the whole essence of Christianity was expressed in one flash-that is, the recognition of God as our Father, and of God’s joy in men as His own children, which is the chief idea of Christ. She was a simple country-woman-a mother, it’s true-and perhaps, who knows, she may have been the wife of the drunken soldier!

“Listen, Parfen; you put a question to me just now. This is my reply. The essence of religious feeling has nothing to do with reason, or atheism, or crime, or acts of any kind-it has nothing to do with these things-and never had. There is something besides all this, something which the arguments of the atheists can never touch. But the principal thing, and the conclusion of my argument, is that this is most clearly seen in the heart of a Russian. This is a conviction which I have gained while I have been in this Russia of ours. Yes, Parfen! there is work to be done; there is work to be done in this Russian world! Remember what talks we used to have in Moscow! And I never wished to come here at all; and I never thought to meet you like this, Parfen! Well, well-good-bye-good-bye! God be with you!”

[xexon]

Anvils Hammer,

It is not wrong to be an atheist. Your only "sin" is that you haven't awakened yet. But you will.

One should not curse an unopened flower.




x

[beg your pardon]

It doesnt matter how good of a person you are, if you do not repent, you're gonna burn, burn FOREVER!

[Texsand]

I love the ones that judge. I believe the word they use to judge others will be their judgement. You go for it beg your pardon.

[Chelle]

There are no bad people......... only bad deeds.


Something like that.


Everyone, whether they are a religious person or not... have to answer to someone. Whether it be themselves, or to a 'higher power'.

I am a human being, and by no means qualified to judge anyone when it comes to whether or not I think they will be sentenced to eternal damnation.


Chelle

[Djj1973]

Dude you are a rotisserie chicken… JK. Chelle hit on the head and drove it home.

[JustinH]

There are no bad people......... only bad deeds.

Well said! :clap:

[swag]

Even the most religious person can be "evil" when perceived by everyone else. Maybe this person thinks that all women who have abortions and all homosexuals should be killed. And while this isn't explicitly said in the bible, it could be interpreted as above.

[earth]

There are no bad people......... only bad deeds.

See, I agree 100% with this but now I'm confused as there are so many on this board that say that OBL is "pure evil". If there's no bad people only bad deeds then I'd be curious to see who thinks OBL is evil... Just thinking aloud.

[earth]

http://www.whistlestopper.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9252&page=1

This is the thread I'm talking about btw.

Djj1973: You said in the thread that there are monsters in the world yet you agree with Chelle. So there are no bad people but there are monsters?

Anyone else in that thread I would love to hear from. Especially if you agree with Chelle's remark.

[Captain America]

Hey...CP when you write:

well guess what, you are foolish.

Be careful there bro.

Matthew 5:22
But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother[ 5:22 Some manuscripts brother without cause] will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca,[ 5:22 An Aramaic term of contempt] ' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.
(Whole Chapter: Matthew 5 In context: Matthew 5:21-23)

And when you write:
don't be insulted, though, so is everybody else in the world, including the person who wrote that article.

Well, I can't speak for everyone but I can speak for myself. I may not be the smartest fella on two legs, but a fool, I am not.

[Thermopylae]

Anvils Hammer-

Yes, you're going straight to hell. Why? Because anyone who disagrees with the bible will burn for it. That's christianity bud.

[Anvils Hammer]

argh... so many points to reply to, please dont mind if i miss yours

cpwill - thanks, it nice to talk to a religous person who is so understanding, you'd make an excellent buddhist!

mataj- LOL those links are briliiant, apparently im posesed by a deamon!

xenon- i used to be christian when i was younger, i am now an atheist, can i be cursed for closing again? or does your point stand?

chelle- agreed, thanks

beg your pardon- i assume you choose option 1! i wonder who the other person was who thinks i will burn,

Thermopylae- thats not true, anyone who disagrees with the bible and refuses to ask for forgiveness from jesus will burn, if i truly repent on my death bed, im going to heaven, but thats not going to happen :) and many other religions have a similar position.
you dont have to agree with christianity, but dont knock it either.
a peice of logic that may amuse you-
some religions believe if your not a member of their religion you will burn in hell
there are many of these religions
the only way to know whos right is faith
so.. chances are... we are all going to hell any way.

thanks everyone!
and its nice ot see a poll that has such a wide range of views.
hopefull the "you will burn" and the "christians will burn" groups will cancel each others votes out leaving me just the sensible options as most likly to be true!

[Chelle]

http://www.whistlestopper.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9252&page=1

This is the thread I'm talking about btw.

Djj1973: You said in the thread that there are monsters in the world yet you agree with Chelle. So there are no bad people but there are monsters?

Anyone else in that thread I would love to hear from. Especially if you agree with Chelle's remark.

People aren't born bad. If they choose do bad things, they have to suffer the consequences.

Now whether or not those 'consequences' include being sent to eternal damnation (read: hell)... is not up to anyone here on this earth, imo.



Chelle

[xexon]

My point stands.

You became an atheist because your perception changed. There is no limit to how many times that can happen to a person.

God is ready anytime you are.



x

[Vic]

There is an option missing: "There is no absolute universal evil nor good"

I don´t believe in good or evil people.

I think there are only 2 types of persons in the world:
The dumb ones and the dumber ones.

[Thermopylae]

There is an option missing: "There is no absolute universal evil nor good"

I don´t believe in good or evil people.

I think there are only 2 types of persons in the world:
The dumb ones and the dumber ones.

That has got to be the most pessimistic statement I have read in my entire life.

[earth]

There is an option missing: "There is no absolute universal evil nor good"

I don´t believe in good or evil people.

I think there are only 2 types of persons in the world:
The dumb ones and the dumber ones.

I'll take that one to the bank. Maybe 3 types though? Dumb, Dumber + Dumberer?

[Chelle]

.

I think there are only 2 types of persons in the world:
The dumb ones and the dumber ones.

Which one do you fall in, if this is true?



Chelle

[Hydrok]

I art be dumberer

[Platypus]

There are only 10 kinds of people: those who know binary, and those who don't.

[Dave]

Anvils Hammer,

It is not wrong to be an atheist. Your only "sin" is that you haven't awakened yet. But you will.

One should not curse an unopened flower.




x

I'm no expert on scripture, but isn't there a verse that say something to the effect "Those who know me, yet deny me, are doomed." If so, that would lead me to believe that a atheist does not yet know God, therefore is not doomed.

Dave

[Texsand]

Judging from the poll results it seems the consensus is that evil is something that comes from the actions of each human being. That being said the converse is also true good comes from the actions of the human being. Doesn't say anything about God or god depending on how you want to spell it. It does say quite a lot about the choices we make based on the way we think and feel.

[DeathMonkey]

Kirk Cameron says we goin to Hell. As long as HE aint there, thats fine with me.
http://www.wayofthemaster.com/

[Viking]

I said this before and Ill say it again, just because it fits here as well. I have both atheist friends as well as christian friends and my atheist friends morally stack up to my christian friends. I find the statement regarding atheists as criminal not only condemning but severly unintelligent.... borderline severly mentally retarded.

I do believe there are evil people. They werent born that way perhaps but have tended to follow evil ways and have no intention of changing. I believe, and this is my opinion, that we ALL screw up once in a while. But for some "christians" who do it constantly, and repeatedly, only to go to confession yet keep doing it over and over again (and Im not talking about the little sins)....these arent "christians". They are the fools... not the atheists.

[Anvils Hammer]

My point stands.

You became an atheist because your perception changed. There is no limit to how many times that can happen to a person.

God is ready anytime you are.

x

thanks everyone,

xenon, you seem to have a very interesting point of view.
i wonder.. do i have the opportuniy to change my mind after death?
if i was a christian my entire life for example but turned from my faith a few days before death (my perception changing)
am i correct in thinking that wi would be given another chance to change my perception after i die.
it seems a little unfair that the obove person would go to hell but if i were to remain an athiest for my entire life and start to believe right before i die, i would go to heaven.
to add wieght to my point, what would happen if by chance i was to die tomorow, i would then not have a chance to repent or change my mind whilst still alive. seems even more unfair.

if god is ready whenever i am, does that include after death?
and if so, can i just wait till then for proof of gods existance?

i would be interested to hear the points of any religious person,

and cpwill, do you believe that if i were killed tomorow i would still go to hell?

[Viking]

I am not going to speak for cpwill, but many christians believe if you dont believe in God then you will go to hell regardless of what you did here on earth. No faith, no enterance. Then there are some religious people who dont believe in this and then there are some who dont believe in a heaven or a hell... just another plain of existance and/or reincarnation. You will probably get some different point of views here.

[xexon]

Anvils' Hammer,

My own beliefs are somewhat alien to the western world. I'm kind of a modern day yogi. Eastern mysticism teaches that there is more than one life. Reincarnation for me is fact in the same way most Christians believe in one life. I spend a large part of my early life steeped in the southern Baptist religion.

However, I found that as I grew, so did my awareness. Even as a child, I was able to see that this form of religion could not contain me. I grew beyond what the church could offer me. So I spent a few years of wandering in the spiritual wilderness myself. I read libraries of books on other beliefs. I was on fire for spirtual knowing. I knew God existed. Never had any doubt about that.

One day I picked up a book on some very esoteric yoga sciences. It was like a bolt from the blue had struck me. It was like I had been transformed in a blinding flash. Some unseen power was now corsing though my soul.

That was many years ago, and it is still the path I walk. It has never wavered or left me in darkness. The journey have given me many "interesting points of view". Including some that science wouldn't agree with.

However my path isn't for the masses. Your path will find you. God puts people on the path they are best suited to travel. The masses, by and large, are functioning at a very simple level of spiritual understanding. The big world religions are like elementary schools. They give the most basic of spiritual educations.

For many, organized religion is their first taste of "the truth". They get very excited about it! They want to share it, and shout it from the rooftops. This is why fundamentalists are so adamant that they are right and everybody else is wrong. They have become power drunk. Its alot like someone who suddenly comes into alot of money. They are rational people otherwise, but sudden wealth can sometimes unbalance the strongest people.

These people do not yet understand that they have only found a single coin, and that far great riches awaits them. When they have had time to adjust, more is revealed to them.

So, you can imagine if a single coin excites a person, how wonderful it is to be given the keys to the vault.

This is what a spiritual journey is all about. Its not about religion, although religion is a tool used along the way. Its about awareness. We all know the difference between good and bad. Just be a good person, even in the dark world around you.

Do that, God will hand you the keys to the vault himself.



x

[VashTheStampede]

i wish that i could have voted for two, if i could have it would have been the 2nd and 3rd one because your actions do judge whether or not you are a bad person but i also think that religion is a good thing and i enjoy being a part of it i like the way that it makes me feel knowing that there is someone always watching over me and loves me unconditionally. i think that the point in which being an athiest becomes a bad thing is when you start to insult other peoples beliefs, they are intitled to their opinion and they are entitled the right to voice it but there is no need to insult anothers beliefs especially when its something that is held very dear to them.

[Viking]

i wish that i could have voted for two, if i could have it would have been the 2nd and 3rd one because your actions do judge whether or not you are a bad person but i also think that religion is a good thing and i enjoy being a part of it i like the way that it makes me feel knowing that there is someone always watching over me and loves me unconditionally. i think that the point in which being an athiest becomes a bad thing is when you start to insult other peoples beliefs, they are intitled to their opinion and they are entitled the right to voice it but there is no need to insult anothers beliefs especially when its something that is held very dear to them.

I couldnt agree more with that. I wish the christian and muslim fundamentalists would open their eyes. Right now we have a muslim fundamentalist who says that the Koran is the only thing to believe in and the US has to become a muslim nation at whatever cost. Just another modern day crusader.

[jamesrage]

I don't believe you are a bad or evil person,I don't care for some of your views,but that don't make you a bad person.

Religion is meaningless if one who claim to be religious is a hypocrite and knows they are a hypocrite and tries to act like they are not. I believe the Bible teaches that forgiveness is obtianed when you admit to the fact you are a sinner and that you are honestly not trying to blantently commit sin and you try to live as close as possible to the bible's teachings.I can say that I am a muslim ,but because I do not follow Muhammad's teachings so I am not a muslim.

[Vanessa]

i am an atheist as well. im not a bad person, im not stupid and im not nasty. i am however a friendly, kind, compassionate and educated person. i was sent to a very strict, all girls catholic school and the hypocrisy of that place caused me to become a "fallen catholic" which has now developed into atheism. so what? every action has a consequence. as far as im concerned "heaven" and "hell" are here on earth. heaven is freedom, love and family. hell is life imprisonment and/or hate. full stop, end of story.

[Anvils Hammer]

thanks for the views everyone

xexon, not much one can say to that, but you will no doubt understand the difficulty i have in understanding you :)

jamesrage, the world would be a VERY boring place if everyone held the same views as me!

""I wish the christian and muslim fundamentalists would open their eyes""

i think we all do viking

[Joe Blow]

for the people who are religious
are atheists wrong for their beliefs, am i any of the above things?

I would suggest you are not any of those things. As an atheist also, I can attest to any number of derogatory comments flung my way since I made my parting with Christianity around grade 6 or so. Every one interprets their own 'spirituality' differently. Some have even gone so far as to suggest that atheism is a religion in itself (I am not one of those mind you). As an atheist you do not have a set of 'standards' (ie 10 Cmdmts) to live up to. You should be looking for those within yourself. Only you can direct your journey and mould yourself the way in which you desire.

I think the biggest fool (if your looking for one) is the person so close minded and blinded by their 'beliefs' that they are unable and unwilling to listen to anyone who does not share said beliefs. Open dialogue and discussion are a very large part of the 'learning curve' in our society. If you are not learning constantly, you are not living to your potential.

[Anvils Hammer]

thanks joe

i especially agree with you on the "biggest fools" issue
and although i do have a christian up bringing and family, my own "stadards" are as you said, within me, and i personally feel they are better than any other set of beliefs(or i wouldent live by them)
as for atheism beign a religion.... its a difficult one, on one hand, its obviously not a religion, but on the other, it does require faith, and is as impossible to proove as any other religion,
i tend to agree with you, its not really.

[Texsand]

The crux of the issue is an atheist has the exact same right as those who believe to think freely. If atheism frightens believers then those believers need to examine their own lack of faith.

[Curio]

Anvils Hammer-

Yes, you're going straight to hell. Why? Because anyone who disagrees with the bible will burn for it. That's christianity bud.


uh oh. I'd better make the most of the time I have, cause if we atheists are gonna burn in hell, thats not good :rolleyes:

[Vic]

That has got to be the most pessimistic statement I have read in my entire life.


Well to be honest, i am a pessimistic guy by nature.

Some optimism might not necessarly be all that bad, but i think most optimists are just to scared to look at the thruth straight in the eyes.

besides, when i´m pessimistic about anything, but instead it actually does turn out the way i like it, then the joy is even greater. :-)
:D


Anyway, so that i don´t get to far away from the Thread:

Me, as an "agnostic", as somone that doesn´t really care if there is some guy in the skies watching us or not, as somone that doesn´t really feel the need to prove that there is no god, am i gonna burn in hell?

[mahayana]

The question about OBL interests me. I'm sure his heart and mind are filled with the most beautiful verses of the Quran. "Death to the infidel, Death to America, Jihad!" must only be a tiny part of his religion, since most muslims ignore that altogether.

"They say to you, an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth...but I say to you, love your enemy, do good to those who wish you harm."

[willieboy31]

I have had religious experiences and I have had a leave-taking of God. I guess that one could say my spirituality is currently on hold.
But I do believe that any religion must be judged by its actions. And Muslim extremist are murdering all over the globe. Now I have to tell myself that the majority of Muslims are not targeting and blowing up children. However, as one country after another falls victim to this religious terrorism, it is very hard to keep an open mind about this religion.

[willieboy31]

Earth,
At last something we have in common: Dostoyevsky. One of my favorite quotes by him comes from The Possessed. "My friend I've been lying all my life. Even when I told the truth...." I realize this is another post but since Dostoyevsky was introduced here, I couldn't resist. forgive.

[Ronnieraygun]

See, I agree 100% with this but now I'm confused as there are so many on this board that say that OBL is "pure evil". If there's no bad people only bad deeds then I'd be curious to see who thinks OBL is evil... Just thinking aloud.


OBL is acting based on his intertpretation of Gods word. There are many interpretations. Most of them benign in there intent toward other people. So it is percieved that OBL's interpretation is flawed. I happen to agree with that perception. However, it will be up to God to make the final judgement.


I noted in your poll this option is getting the majority of play...


your actions, not your beliefs, should be the only thing that decides wether or not you are evil.

For the rest of us this may be true, but when it comes to final judgement, it isn't.
You WILL be judged primarily on what you beliieve. Your imortal soul hangs in the balance by what you believe. Jesus died for all our sins, and it ONLY through him that we are saved.

Ephesians 2:8-9 NIV
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- not by works, so that no one can boast."

[Anvils Hammer]

For the rest of us this may be true, but when it comes to final judgement, it isn't.
You WILL be judged primarily on what you beliieve. Your imortal soul hangs in the balance by what you believe. Jesus died for all our sins, and it ONLY through him that we are saved.

Ephesians 2:8-9 NIV
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- not by works, so that no one can boast."

i didnt ask him to die for my sins, but surly, as he already died for them, i cant be judged badlt what ever i believe, becuase ive alreayd been forgiven the moment he was crucified.
either this is true, or god didnt know the sins i was going to commit and thus is not all knowing.
care to explain that?
if i wasnt going to believe, and god knew this, then why did jesus bother dieing for my sins? or maby he didnt, in which case i own him nothing.
and what gave god the right to say whats good or bad, i never agreed to follow them so why should i be punnished for breaking them. if a dictator banned religion without consent from the people and executed anyone that practiced religion, you would call him a dictator and an evil maniac, why is god any different?

and if god real loves me, why would he give me the choice "do my will or die", as opose to "i created you, so it would be nice if you would do my will"

end rant.

please explain... i need to know if im right or not.

[mystBoag]

Victorian missionaries preaching to tribal people in Africa and South America faced an interesting conundrum. If somebody wasn't a Christian, but during their life they were never exposed to Christian thought, would they still burn in hell for all eternity? A bit harsh, I'd have thought. Perhaps some of the people who voted for option 1 could share their thoughts on that?

[cpwill]

?and cpwill, do you believe that if i were killed tomorow i would still go to hell?

i believe that if you were killed tomorow you would choose to go to hell:(


sorry to bring up such an old point, i just saw it.

[Anvils Hammer]

i dont understand cpwill,

either
A. i choose to go to hell before death because i am an atheist. in which case god hasnt really given me much of a chance to change my mind. OR
B. i choose to go to hell AFTER death, in which case i would be capable of choosing to go to heven and becoming a believer, and this choice would be a good as a choice to believe whilst still on earth.

i would never choose to go to hell if i was given the choice after death, i would refuse to recognise gods right to rule what i can and cannot do, and thus be sent to hell as punishment.

mystBoag - an excelent point, id be interested to hear your view cpwill, and others who believe. in addition, what happens to people broght up by atheists in western society today who are never exposed to christian thoughts, what about babies?

in this theme- as an athiest, one would say ive yet to realise the truth because im so young and still learning, a person who was unaware of christianisty would be in the same postion as me- would we both go to hell? or just me? if just me, why?

another question-
one person, a christian, lives a life of sin, and cant help it, but is genuinly remorsefull and askes forgiveness, thus getting into heaven.
another person is not religious, but commits far fewer sins and for the most part follows the 10 commandments purly by good character etc. i find it hard to belive this person will go to hell whereas the other will not.

[xexon]

So do I.

Boy, did the sunday school teachers hate to see me coming. :)


x

[Anvils Hammer]

lol, i can imagine!
my parents are getting so tired of my constant questioning they have offered to invite a priest type person round to answer my questions! our debates most often end with a stony silence, and them desperatly trying to answer me and ignore my logic at the same time. ah well,

[cpwill]

hmmm....

A) you have had a pretty darn good chance, considering your past history, to be willing to accept God, i'd go with you've rejected him here, and that tendency stays with you. of course, this is conjecture as i cant' really know. this is just what i think.

mystBoag: nobody really knows. after all, none of us are on the selection-to-heaven committee:) i'd be willing to bet that they are judged by what they did with what they were given, but, hey, i'm not God.

on your second question; both having led sinful lives, and therefore both having been separated from God by their own actions, both are in need of forgiveness.

[Anvils Hammer]

i come from a religious family, i was religious. it was only when i started to THINK that i changed my mind! i suppose ive had a chance... and will go to hell... i real dont fear it though so the motivation to be forgiven isnt really there...

i question you on one point, you say i have "rejected god"
how can i reject someone i have never had any contact with, and whom logic tells me does not exist??? if i aknowledge gods existance, but refused to have any kind of relationship with him, i would be rejecting him, but i havent, so i cant have rejected him, i simple have not been made aware of his existance, i think it unfair that i should be expected to ask forgiveness from a being who i do not know, even if he/she does exist.
if god wants me to accept him, and is all powerfull, why am i unaware of his precence?

[cpwill]

you have the choice either to accept or reject Him; no, he will not force his way in, i suppose within this context one could argue that we actually don't start out in a positive or a negative but rather as an nuetral.

"behold i stand at the door and knock"


or, of course, you could simply adopt the calvinist explination of predestination; but i'm not positive that that ultimately holds a whole lot of water.

[cpwill]

give me some of your questions, i enjoy a good struggle.

[xexon]

God takes rejection like a 4 year old rejects his/her parents. We are all God's children.

And, like an angry child, we sometimes say things out of anger. It doesn't carry much weight, because God knows what is truly in our hearts. God just smiles, and lets us ramble on.

Its hard to feel anger towards an infant. And Earth is just one big nursery.



x



x

[MikeD4o7]

give me some of your questions, i enjoy a good struggle.

Well I think when we talk to most christians, they'll tell you that God wants basically two things. 1. That we believe in God's existence. 2. That we choose to follow God's path and love God.

The idea that God wants us to have free will is all well and good for explaining why not everybody goes with option 2. But it wouldn't interfere on our free will for God to let every human being on earth know, without a shadow of doubt, that he does in fact exist... at which point he could leave the option of whether or not to follow him up to us, but at least our choice would be very clear.

So the question is... if God does exist, why hide it in ambiguity? There are plenty of people that have died atheist that were neither stupid nor insane... so why should that happen? How can it NOT be considered a better scheme of salvation to let EVERYONE know absolutely that God's existence is very real, but then leave the choice of whether or not to follow him up to the masses... why must even his existence be cloaked behind natural phenomena and science, if he does in fact exist?

That's a question I've never seen satisfactorally answered.

[cpwill]

??? as far as i've been able to tell, even when God does make it plain and obvious to us that He Is Here we tend not to pay attention. heck, He physically came down to earth and spent years here, talking to us on a one-on-one level, and eventually we got tired of listening to him and killed him for it.

why should God not send to us, instead, the Holy Spirit, which is avaliable to us all? the only way, it seems for God to "prove" his existance to us is to remove our free will and force that acceptance into our brains.

[Achilles]

i am an atheist

according to some religous website i found
http://www.judeministries.org/god/godsexistence.htm

"Scripture tells us the atheist is a fool.
Don't sweat it. Those who follow an ancient book and a religious cult with political power, out of the fear of the unknown, are the ones who fear burning in a mythical place. I do not fear anything that has no proof in evidence, therefore I am free of such a deceptive collective. Really.

[cpwill]

???:lol:, you think i follow Christ because i am afraid?

[Achilles]

Chill dude, that is a general statement which rings true of many. I do not remember addressing you per say. I am sure you have no fear of Christ or God or the boogy man, bravo. It is a step away from ancient myths.

:D

[Achilles]

Don't sweat it. Those who follow an ancient book and a religious cult with political power, out of the fear of the unknown, are the ones who fear burning in a mythical place. I do not fear anything that has no proof in evidence, therefore I am free of such a deceptive collective. Really. ^ Just some comfort for someone who feels he has been labeled a fool for his opinion and belief.

I honestly meant no offense with my opinion. I just felt like opining, in somewhat generalities, as to answer and aid the thread author's question as to whether he is a fool as labeled by the religious. And to bring forth that, indeed, it may be they who are the foolish.

[MikeD4o7]

??? as far as i've been able to tell, even when God does make it plain and obvious to us that He Is Here we tend not to pay attention. heck, He physically came down to earth and spent years here, talking to us on a one-on-one level, and eventually we got tired of listening to him and killed him for it.

why should God not send to us, instead, the Holy Spirit, which is avaliable to us all? the only way, it seems for God to "prove" his existance to us is to remove our free will and force that acceptance into our brains.


In the span of humanity, personally coming down yourself once for about 33 years and even then, only visiting less than 1% of the population that existed at the time when you're down here just isn't all that convincing to me for a God that thinks nobody should doubt his existence. I don't see why it would be so hard for God to send everyone a very very blatant sign, that can't be found in nature, where he actually says "here i am, I exist... take it or leave it". Maybe you've had something like this, but myself and all of the nonbelievers certainly haven't. Unfortunately, all of the everyday "signs" that believers claim God is responsible for have a perfectly feasible scientific explanation... if God is attempting to show himself to the world in ways that can be confused as science, I don't see why he shouldn't expect there to be plenty of people that see it for what it appears to simply be to them... science. If I were God, I wouldn't come up with a scheme of salvation that required belief in me, then go hide from everyone in the bushes and just see if they "come and find me".

[Anvils Hammer]

give me some of your questions, i enjoy a good struggle.

dont say iddint warn you :devil:

question 1.

is there any way of proving the existance of anything out side the physical universe that can be objectivly measured or observed by an agnostic scientist?

question 2.

asumming the answer is no, then the only evidence of god is the bible, it is possible, and in my view likly, that jesus was a normal prophet who preached his own believes, and that any "mirical" or similar happenings were made up or exagerted, or can be expalained using sicentific knowledge that was not known when the bible was writen.
thus, cannot it not be said that the bible, written by humans hundreds of year ago, is not a pluasable source of facts?
is there ANY way of proving the important events described in the bible took place? (by important, i mean events that would not occur today eg miricles)

question 3.

assuming that niether science, nor the bible can provide evidence of gods existance, would it be fair to say that the entire christian religion is based on faith?

question 4.

the evidence and facts given to support the christian religion are indenticel in nature (old books, eye witness acounts, spiritual expeirances etc) to the facts given to support other world religions such as hinduism and islam.
given that the only way to know WHICH sets of facts are correct is faith, there is know way to tell which religion is correct other than faith.

if you said in question 3 that the facts etc given to support chrisitanity are correct and scientificially viable, how can you say that your facts are corrent, when other sets of similar facts are given to support other religions?
surly if you support the facts of your religion the only way you can reject another religion is by faith.

question 5.

surly this all prooves concretly that the religion is based on faith, with no specific evidence of any kind that can be given in its support?


answer me these 5 questions, and expect many follow up questions :)

[cpwill]

MikeDo; which is exactly why the Holy Spirit was, and continues to be available to every human today. it is hard to say that "God hides from us", when, in fact, God surrounds us more than we can possibly imagine.

anvil: excelent questions; i'll see what i can do.

1. no, certainly not with current equipment and probably never unless we get into the "other dimensions" sci-fi stuff; which, in reality, might be by definition also part of the universe (literally, everything).

2. incorrect assumption, my personal evidence of God is much more immediate and much stronger than merely the bible. were my faith founded solely on the stories in the bible, it would have faded long ago.

as for biblical text history, aie, that deserves it's own thread (and has gotten several:))

3. due to the incorrect assumption in no.2, the answer is no.

4. do other religions contain truth? certainly.

5. nope.:)

[MikeD4o7]

MikeDo; which is exactly why the Holy Spirit was, and continues to be available to every human today. it is hard to say that "God hides from us", when, in fact, God surrounds us more than we can possibly imagine.


I look around and me and I see a computer screen, a really comfortable bed, some fast food cups on my desk, some clothes on my floor, a couple pictures of my family and my girlfriend, but no holy spirit. When I go outside it's a little different. I see an earth that has been molded by a few billion years of interacting atoms and molecules... some trees and animals made up of mostly carbon, some air and clouds made up of mostly nitrogen, and so on... but no holy spirit. If there is a holy spirit surrounding us at all times... it's camoflauged itself very well to look like the natural occurrences of nature.

2. incorrect assumption, my personal evidence of God is much more immediate and much stronger than merely the bible. were my faith founded solely on the stories in the bible, it would have faded long ago.


Ah good, so you do believe then that those of us without these personal experiences who don't believe are perfectly reasonable in our lack of belief?

[cpwill]

now that is a tricky question:)

and one i will have to get to after my nap (all nighter last night, ugh)

[mystBoag]

Anvils, Cp,

You may be interested (if you haven't already) in reading about memetics. I'd recommend Susan Blackmore's book "The Meme Machine". There is a lot of information about it on the internet too, but it tends to be rather poorly presented and often misses the point.

I can't do the subject justice in this posting. In short, however, it applies evolutionary ideas to culture. It is relevant here because it provides a rational explanation for why religions would come to exist, even if they had no basis in truth. In particular, it explains why sentiments like "all non-believers will go to hell" are so important to a successful religion.

[Ronnieraygun]

i didn't ask him to die for my sins, but surly, as he already died for them, i cant be judged badly what ever i believe, because Ive already been forgiven the moment he was crucified. either this is true, or god didn't know the sins i was going to commit and thus is not all knowing.
care to explain that?

Unfortunately, this isn't true. You have to accept that he died for your sins, and accept him as your savior. It requires a commitment.


if i wasn't going to believe, and god knew this, then why did Jesus bother dieing for my sins? or maby he didn't, in which case i own him nothing.
and what gave god the right to say whats good or bad, i never agreed to follow them so why should i be punished for breaking them. if a dictator banned religion without consent from the people and executed anyone that practiced religion, you would call him a dictator and an evil maniac, why is god any different?

and if god real loves me, why would he give me the choice "do my will or die", as opposed to "i created you, so it would be nice if you would do my will"

end rant.

please explain... i need to know if I'm right or not.

Among all the things he gave us, he also gave us free will, which includes the option of destroying ourselves. Of course these premises are all based on faith. If you have none, then this whole discussion is moot to you.

[Ghost]

Based on what you've said, I'd say you're not a bad person. The quote you had about atheists being corrupt, foolish, blah blah blah just goes to show something I like to call 'religious intolerance.'

[mahayana]

The larger, more universal phenomenon is "outgroup prejudice/ingroup reinforcement." Once you reveal a position like atheism, or liberal politics, polygamy, white supremacy, etc, a whole set of responses kick in for everyone whose groups disagree.

You can't be a good member of my group if you disagree with our beliefs. Are you really bad? Well, there might be hope for you if you see the light and start conforming. Until then, expect prejudice. Talking with the other members of my group about your ideas has only made me feel stronger that you are wrong and we are right.

[Secession]

The larger, more universal phenomenon is "outgroup prejudice/ingroup reinforcement." Once you reveal a position like atheism, or liberal politics, polygamy, white supremacy, etc, a whole set of responses kick in for everyone whose groups disagree.

You can't be a good member of my group if you disagree with our beliefs. Are you really bad? Well, there might be hope for you if you see the light and start conforming. Until then, expect prejudice. Talking with the other members of my group about your ideas has only made me feel stronger that you are wrong and we are right.

That makes a lot of sense.

[mahayana]

There are other related observations about human groups. For example, even within a group there is a tendency toward the "pecking order" or "black sheep" phenomenon, where one person becomes the groups' pariah. This seems to fulfill a need within a group to have a focus on what is considered correct and incorrect thought and behavior. Uncomfortable though, if you happen to be the one being "picked on."

[Anvils Hammer]

mahayana- good posts, i agree
mystBoag- sounds interesting, i shall look into "memetics", thanks
MikeD4o7- good question!, i would like to know cpwills response as well!

Ronnieraygun

do you accept then, that the choice he gives us is "do as i say" or "destroy yourself" because thats what you have writen,
you seem to say that god isnt a dicator because he gives us the free will to destroy ourselves, so we are free. i feel that "destroy yourself" is NOT a valid alternative and thus we do not have real choice.
ill give you a chance to reword what you wrote if you would like, i may be missing the point.


cpwill.

you say-
"my personal evidence of God is much more immediate and much stronger than merely the bible"
and you say that the bible alone is not enough to support you religious views.
you think that your religion is not based on faith because you have had personal experiances of god (correct me if im wrong here)
here is my question-
ALL the practicioners of the major religions claim to have had experiances exactly like yours, they have exactly the same level of faith based on personal experiance as you do.
HOW do you know that YOUR faith is the right one when all other religions have exactly the same evidence (or atleast, evidence as valid)
the way i see it, the only way to know that your faith is the correct one is to believe in your faith, i assume you believe in your faith, and think it the correct one to follow.
the ONLY way to know that your faith is correct, and the evidence given by others is incorrect is FAITH.
without faith, the different religions would have to be identical for somone to be able to follow them without hipocracy.

i think that religion is based solely on faith, as you require faith to believe that the evidence for your faith is correct despite very similar and valid evidence for other religions.
do you agree that religion is based totally on faith, and that any evidence that does exist cannot possible be assigned to your religion, but only religion in general?

[SaintAnger]

Did anyone here ever take Philosophy? I remember this discussion we had on trying to prove that God exists. Although we fell short of proving his existance...we did have some rather interesting evidence. Heres an example, and maybe you've heard of it:

Image that deep in the woods, laying on top of a tree stump....there lays a gold pocket watch. Now try to compare the gold pocket watch to the universe as a whole. The watch, like the universe, is made up of several intricate parts. With all it's tiny gears, springs, levers, and what not.....now then ask yourself. "Did all of these intricate parts just fall together on that stump, and form that watch? Or did somebody, or something put those parts together, and place that watch on that tree stump?

[Captain America]

What does your common sense tell you? Someone obviously placed the manufactored watch there. What about the stump? That is a natural product of natural physics and not a manufactored creation. I view the universe more like the stump than the watch. A natural evolution of physics. What does your common sense tell you?

All to often people ignore their own sense of logic in lieu of myth and superstition.

[SaintAnger]

What does your common sense tell you? Someone obviously placed the manufactored watch there. What about the stump? That is a natural product of natural physics and not a manufactored creation. I view the universe more like the stump than the watch. A natural evolution of physics. What does your common sense tell you?

All to often people ignore their own sense of logic in lieu of myth and superstition.


Just like it takes common sense to determine that someone made the watch, and someone placed the watch on the stump. It takes common sense to determine that someone made this world, and placed it in this universe.

[VashTheStampede]

But what is so wrong with believing in a higher power? is it such a bad thing that people believe in a greater being, that someone created them and put them here, and that we arent just a cosmic hiccup? i understand that the idea of religion isnt entirely logical but does it really have to be? there are people out there who push religion on everybody. they try to force those who dont want to be a part of it into the circle of faith and only end up pushing them farther away, and that is wrong. but its also wrong of people who dont believe to insult and try to prove what those who do believe to be nothing but a load of crap and that they are stupid for ever buying into it. do you understand that when you do that you are shattering/insulting something that these people believe in and that it is a belief that is very dear to them. we are all entitled to our opinions, yes. and i guess thats the bottem line here. i just voiced mine.

[mahayana]

Ah, yes. Where does time come from? Where do beliefs come from? Where do unanswerable questions come from? At least the chicken and the egg question has a solution. I think "Does God Exist?" is the longest thread on this board, but we can rehash if you like, as a side topic to 'how people should be treated whose opinions differ from yours.'

[VashTheStampede]

treat people as you wish to be treated, those are always good words to live by.

[SaintAnger]

treat people as you wish to be treated, those are always good words to live by.

That has never been more relevant than in today's world. Keep the faith.

[Captain America]

It takes common sense to determine that someone made this world, and placed it in this universe.

I guess that is a matter of what one considers to be common sense. I might have the common sense to design a watch or perhaps even put a man on the moon. But I do not have the common sense to design and manufactor a tree stump. In my opinion, it is not very good common sense to think that anyone else could either. I don't think that "someone made this world and placed it in the universe" no more than I believe that someone made the stump.

It was a process of natural physics and creative evolution and no "being" is responsible. To think so is rather naive if not arrogant. Mankind has a long history of explaining away things we don't understand as mystic phenominon or devine intervention. It is not in our nature to simply admit that we do not know everything about everything and the religious "catch-all" of "God said it, I believe it, that settles it" mentality was an effective psychological ploy we spoon fed ourselves for centuries. Some still do.

As for me and my house, we shall serve logic and the dictates of reason. In short, if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's more than likely a duck.

[SaintAnger]

I'll carve your name in the golden stairs. You better pray your right! ;)

[Achilles]

I guess that is a matter of what one considers to be common sense. I might have the common sense to design a watch or perhaps even put a man on the moon. But I do not have the common sense to design and manufactor a tree stump. In my opinion, it is not very good common sense to think that anyone else could either. I don't think that "someone made this world and placed it in the universe" no more than I believe that someone made the stump.

It was a process of natural physics and creative evolution and no "being" is responsible. To think so is rather naive if not arrogant. Mankind has a long history of explaining away things we don't understand as mystic phenominon or devine intervention. It is not in our nature to simply admit that we do not know everything about everything and the religious "catch-all" of "God said it, I believe it, that settles it" mentality was an effective psychological ploy we spoon fed ourselves for centuries. Some still do.

As for me and my house, we shall serve logic and the dictates of reason. In short, if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's more than likely a duck.
My opinion is that you are right.


Wow.... Religion. What a concept... Group (and individual) worship goes so far back in history. Man has fears of the unknown and man groups together for comfort. There was the god of fire, the god of war, the god of food, the god of water, the god of gods, the god of this and the god of that. Finally someone said...hey how about one? Yeah, that would make it easier.

I try to get as much freedom in my individual life as I possibly can. This means staying away from groups and being grouped. This includes freedom from worship, freedom from ancient religions and ancient gods, freedom from cults (are not major religions just cults with political power?) and freedom from brainwashing. Yes, these things are all around us...they brainwash us with politics (left and right), they brainwash us with religion, and they brainwash us to by certain products from the store.

Think freedom, I do. And I feel that I have become a much stronger person in life because of it. I do not take crap from anyone. You want me to believe something...show me the facts. Lay it on the table...I got things to do. I got a life to live. I got a beautiful family to enjoy. I got my very own “miracles” in life to enjoy. You only live once. Enjoy it because it is a short life. I won’t be wasting my time worshiping someone’s fictional god or devil.

I respect those who have/feel/need a faith in god and belief in the after life. Fine. But do not go around preaching those who have found a freedom from it. I even fight for their right from those who wish to squash it. I do have a problem with secularism as it is just another form of grouping with government as their "all mighty".

I have morals. I teach morals to my daughter. I have more morals than some religious people I know. Really. I also have no fear, which is what gives me all that much more freedom.

Yep, freedom.

End of two cent rant. :)

[mahayana]

My opinion is that your are right.


Wow.... Religion. What a concept... Group (and individual) worship goes so far back in history. Man has fears of the unknown and man groups together for comfort. There was the god of fire, the god of war, the god of food, the god of water, the god of gods, the god of this and the god of that. Finally someone said...hey how about one? Yeah, that would make it easier.

I try to get as much freedom in my individual life as I possibly can. This means staying away from groups and being grouped. This includes freedom from worship, freedom from ancient religions and ancient gods, freedom from cults (are not major religions just cults with political power?) and freedom from brainwashing. Yes, these things are all around us...they brainwash us with politics (left and right), they brainwash us with religion, and they brainwash us to by certain products from the store.

Think freedom. I do, and I feel that I have become a much stronger person in life because of it. I don’t take no crap from anyone. You want me to believe something...show me the facts. Lay it on the table...I got things to do. I got a life to live. I got a beautiful family to enjoy. I got my very own “miracles” in life to enjoy. You only live once. Enjoy it because it is a short life. I won’t be wasting my time worshiping someone’s fictional god or devil.

I respect those who have/feel/need a faith in god and belief in the after life. Fine. But do not go around preaching those who have found a freedom from it. I even fight for their right from those who wish to squash it. I do have a problem with secularism as it is just another form of grouping with government as their "all mighty".

I have morals. I teach morals to my daughter. I have more morals than some religious people I know. Really. I also have no fear, which is what gives me all that much more freedom.

Yep, freedom.

End of two cent rant. :)

I agree with much of what you say here. There is nothing wrong with living outside of the sphere of theism. Those that feel compelled to "share the good news" often get annoyed with those immune to the proselytizing, forget the "judge not" admonishment.

The zen message is free your mind of all this obsessive thought, but I keep discussing the ideas and questioning religious people, looking for evidence for their beliefs. Organized Religion does work for many.